4 great articles in today's Denver Post (Colorado Springs, Black Forest: real estate, showing, maintenance)

[bullfish15]

DOOM AND GLOOM!!! First of all, lets put these articles into context. The post is a liberal newspaper and generally prints articles with a "progressive" spin. The progressive left has a tendency to find popular talking points and take stances which pour salt in the woulds of the afflicted. This leaves people angry and disenfranchised. These articles are playing on the emotions of old nostalgic Coloradans who remember a time when Colorado and Wyoming were one in the same. No oil wells, no streets, no people.

From time to time this exact same topic comes up for discussion and the end result is always the same. The thread is turned into a war procured onto the transplants by the natives. (The politics of division are alive and well here!) In order to accept the school of thought which Jazz preaches, one must agree with the following statements:
1. Growth in any sense of the word is inherently a bad thing.
2. Massive energy reserves, which lie under pristine beautiful landscape must never be touched, regardless of the demand for said energy.
3. Colorado is running out of beautiful undeveloped wilderness and is being replaced by sprawling suburbia statewide.
4. Colorado's current living arrangement is going to be largely unsustainable within a very few years. (a direct quote)
5. None of the transplants care about nature, history, and the Colorado landscape.
6. Americans can not fix any problem that we encounter.

I tend not to be such a pessimist. Let it be known that the "Curmudgeonly Colo. native" has an agenda... to promote the recession of Colorado because he was born here and no one who comes here can appreciate this state as he does.

This goes back to the liberal Denver Post. I hope nobody believes that a newspaper never spins the news or prints articles that only show one side of an arguement. Let's look at one statement from the last article: "While we are seeing the first decline in driving since the oil embargo of the '70s, in response to the price at the pump, the average person can reduce their driving by only a small amount, since it is impossible to get to work, school, church or shopping centers without a lengthy drive." That is a line of bull****! My church is a 10 minute drive, all kinds of grocery stores are within 5 minutes and 2 shopping malls are within 15 minutes. That doesn't include Wal mart, best buy, Office Depot, Sears, Target and any other store that I want to go to. In fact, if I lived in a less populated area these commodities would not be as accessible. Let's say I lived in Limon. This is a smaller town which is not booming to the extent of Denver. What would I do when I wanted to go shopping? In order to get to wal mart I would have to drive to Colorado springs or Aurora! What a gas savings!

"The decline in walking brought on by suburban land use patterns contributes to the increase in obesity." Strangely self responsibility has nothing to do with it. There are many reasons that someone is obese, and inactivity is probably on that list. It is not the fault of the government and city planners who allegedly don't make pedestrian friendly cities. If you don't want to exercise, you can be obese in New York City, Cleveland, Denver or Highlands Ranch.

This article can be debunked further. No factual data was used to write this article. It was written to promote a political agenda and ideology. Perhaps it would better be placed in the opinion section.

I'm not sure why the dude ranch article was included. I guess big bad development and the transplants are destroying ranches as well.

These articles are written to tug at emotions, especially those of people who have seen the transition from Denver and Colorado as a whole from cow town to boom town and don't like it. Anyone who reads them can see them for what they are.

I don't think Colorado is running out of beautiful land. In fact I know it's not. Sure, there may be water troubles and "overpopulation" problems looming in our future, but when in America have you know us to throw in the towel? When have we not been able to solve our problems? Do you enjoy paying $4 a gallon? Do you want to pay more? Or better yet... Do you want to buy your oil from Colorado where the profits are distributed to American 401k's or from Saudi Arabia and Venezuela?

Should we promote the bust of Denver because we don't want anyone else to enjoy all that it offers? I say no, others say yes.

[bullfish15]

Originally Posted by onthamove

so Noahma are you saying overpopulation is not a problem?

Overpopulation is in the eye of the beholder. Just ask someone from New York or LA or Beijing or New Delhi if Douglass County is suffering from overpopulation.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by bullfish15

DOOM AND GLOOM!!! First of all, lets put these articles into context. The post is a liberal newspaper and generally prints articles with a "progressive" spin. The progressive left has a tendency to find popular talking points and take stances which pour salt in the woulds of the afflicted. This leaves people angry and disenfranchised. These articles are playing on the emotions of old nostalgic Coloradans who remember a time when Colorado and Wyoming were one in the same. No oil wells, no streets, no people.

From time to time this exact same topic comes up for discussion and the end result is always the same. The thread is turned into a war procured onto the transplants by the natives. (The politics of division are alive and well here!) In order to accept the school of thought which Jazz preaches, one must agree with the following statements:
1. Growth in any sense of the word is inherently a bad thing.
2. Massive energy reserves, which lie under pristine beautiful landscape must never be touched, regardless of the demand for said energy.
3. Colorado is running out of beautiful undeveloped wilderness and is being replaced by sprawling suburbia statewide.
4. Colorado's current living arrangement is going to be largely unsustainable within a very few years. (a direct quote)
5. None of the transplants care about nature, history, and the Colorado landscape.
6. Americans can not fix any problem that we encounter.

Glad to see that you can twist words.

1. I have never said this. What I do say is that the type of growth we have now is structurally flawed, needlessly destructive, and--as you correctly point out--unsustainable in its present form over the long term.

2. Since I have worked closely with the energy industry, I do believe in RESPONSIBLE energy development. I do not consider following off a half-baked pipe dream that oil shale will ever be feasible as an energy source as "responsible," especially given the grievous environmental impacts associated with its development using any known technology--and apparently a lot of knowledgeable people within the energy industry are equally skeptical as to its feasibility. As to other types of energy development, they should be carried out responsibly. The biggest fairy tale is that this will somehow dig the US out of its current energy mess without a substantial change in how and where we live--we long ago passed the point of that being possible. If we are lucky, any new petroleum and natural gas supplies we find might--and I emphasize "might"--buy us a little time to make those painful structural changes we are going to have to make without enduring a social/political/economic/environmental crisis like nothing we have ever seen. But we had better get started making those structural changes RIGHT NOW--and nobody in a leadership position has guts enough to tell the American people that.

3. One only has to see what has been lost to development already, and how that rate of development is accelerating, to be be profoundly disturbed about what Colorado will look like 25 years or so (or even 10) from now.

4. Yes. Unequivocally.

5. Some do, many don't. Few have the historical perspective, though, to know what really has been here, and how much has already been lost. It's hard to lament the loss of what you never knew.

6. The first step to solving any problem is acknowledging it and defining it. We are not even doing that. We are, instead--as many posts on these forums are quite clearly illustrating--engaging in massive denial about a whole plethora of serious issues confronting us. Anyone with the audacity to point them out is chastised. Problems not acknowledged can't be solved. So, who is the roadblock to solving problems? Those who acknowledge them, or those who refuse to?

Finally, I'm getting damned sick of this liberal/conservative crap. The underlying issues here long ago transcended political ideology. In case nobody has noticed, I'm a staunch fiscal conservative. I don't find my views in conflict with that. The root of "conservative" is CONSERVE--not squander, waste, deplete, use up, or destroy. It's about time we all embraced that "ideology."

[5thIndian]

Jazzlover,
Thanks for the articles.
This water issue of Colorado's concerns me the most and quite frankly may stop me from moving my family west. As much as I love your state, it does seem to come up very short in the ability to handle growth due the limited resources it has and always will have due to the fact that those sunny days mean NO RAIN!
--Quote from, The Megapolitan West article, Denver Post:
"And Washington's help is needed to deal with water — historically the West's most contentious issue. The Colorado River, noted Huntsman, "is not getting larger" and the interstate compact dividing its flow, ratified by the region's states and Congress, "dates to 1922, the time of the Treaty of Versailles." The stakes, Huntsman insists, are momentous: The West is "headed toward disastrous results in the absence of decisive steps" to deal with water shortages triggered by population growth, climate change and regional drought. Huntsman would start with dramatic conservation and recycling efforts."
...And how much can conservation really help? The average Coloradian seems to a easterner like me to be environmentally conscious and still the shortages loom on your horizon. I for one can't see how you can police water useage...until the taps are running empty and ALL really see the problem. And then it's too late.
--The dude ranch article is sad too and speaks volumes of our human self indulgence and penchant for ruining good and sacred things, like beans. And, geez, do we have to have hottubs everywhere?

[Katiana]

As is well known on this forum, I do not qutie believe the sky is falling. I especially do not agree with #2, "The biggest fairy tale is that this will somehow dig the US out of its current energy mess without a substantial change in how and where we live--we long ago passed the point of that being possible. . . . painful structural changes we are going to have to make without enduring a social/political/economic/environmental crisis like nothing we have ever seen." For some reason, there are some who are almost gleeful at the idea that there will be a great deal of pain involved in any change. They can't wait. I find this very annoying.

There was an article in the "Car Guys" column of the Boulder Daily Camera a few weeks ago about new auto technology that will be out in a few years that is much more fuel efficient. Unfortunately, their search engine is not bringing up the article. I knew I should have bookmarked it at the time! But the point is, DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE ABILITY OF HUMAN BEINGS TO ADAPT TO CHANGE!

I also disagree that many "newcomers" to Colorado, which apparently means anyone who wasn't born here, don't care about the environment, etc. One only has to read the OPs of the many people wanting to move here to know that is not true.

As far as the "historical perspective" if it means "what was good enough then is good enough now and forever", I'm fine with people losing it.

As an aside, my home state of Pennsylvania is smaller geographically than Colorado, has two major cities, one of which (Pittsburgh) is almost the same size as Denver, and the other of which (Philadelphia) is much larger, yet Pennsylvania has a reputation as a fairly rural state. Much of New York State is rural as well. Point being that I think Colorado can absorb a lot more people w/o being "ruined".

[onthamove]

its true overpopulation definition varies, rual in the eastern us in areas where i have lived such as ohio ky and virginia consider rural being 10 or 15 minutes from a shopping or city or larger town with services, i can say after three trips out to co on three diffrent routes i25 points east to the new mexico and co state borders you have rual that i prior had never could have imagined. texas oklahoma panhandles, west kansas, those areas taught me the true meaning of rural, ohh and the time i got lost in utah

[onthamove]

thanks to a nice truck driver in blanding i got back on my route

[bullfish15]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Glad to see that you can twist words.

1. I have never said this. What I do say is that the type of growth we have now is structurally flawed, needlessly destructive, and--as you correctly point out--unsustainable in its present form over the long term.

Structurally flawed? I don't think that everyone lives 20+ miles from everywhere. Do you really think that we are hogs at the trough in the way we development barren rangeland? (Don't answer that, I believe you do. That is why you have the opinions that you have.)

Originally Posted by jazzlover

3. One only has to see what has been lost to development already, and how that rate of development is accelerating, to be be profoundly disturbed about what Colorado will look like 25 years or so (or even 10) from now.

(no copyright on image)
I see more green than red. Lots more.

Originally Posted by jazzlover

5. Some do, many don't. Few have the historical perspective, though, to know what really has been here, and how much has already been lost. It's hard to lament the loss of what you never knew.

What you look at as loss others don't. Would you care to define this "loss"? You have mentioned losses already expierenced many times, but I guess since I am not a native I can't possibly understand them.

Originally Posted by jazzlover

6. The first step to solving any problem is acknowledging it and defining it. We are not even doing that. We are, instead--as many posts on these forums are quite clearly illustrating--engaging in massive denial about a whole plethora of serious issues confronting us. Anyone with the audacity to point them out is chastised. Problems not acknowledged can't be solved. So, who is the roadblock to solving problems? Those who acknowledge them, or those who refuse to?

Finally, I'm getting damned sick of this liberal/conservative crap. The underlying issues here long ago transcended political ideology. In case nobody has noticed, I'm a staunch fiscal conservative. I don't find my views in conflict with that. The root of "conservative" is CONSERVE--not squander, waste, deplete, use up, or destroy. It's about time we all embraced that "ideology."

Perfect! Deny the problem altogether. I said that the Denver post generally is a liberal, or at least a left leaning newspaper (a well known and accepted fact). The underlying issues are not transcending political ideology, but ARE political ideology. It just happens to fit your anti transplant anti development ideology. Xenophobia also transcends political ideology. You may say that you are a fiscal conservative but your outlook on economic development is not. Let the energy markets take care of themselves. We can fix the water problems, and yes, some people may get mad if we build more reservoirs but they are needed more so than not.

We all know what the problems are. $4 gas. Rising prices. A currency not backed by anything but trust. An out of control federal reserve. Limited water resources. Pollution. Funding our enemies with petroleum money. A lopsided debt to income ratio for individuals and government alike. These are the problems we face and they effect us on a national and local level. What you do is identify the problems and then give your platitudes and non-solutions by just crying out the doom and gloom that lies in store for us. Apart from massively changing our lifestyles you are bringing no feasible real world solutions to the table. (not that dramatically reducing our standard of living is a remotely feasible solution) It fits your hatred of change. That, my friend, is why you are chastised so much.

[ryanek9freak]

Well, we can all sit and complain about the population explosion, but really, what is anyone going to DO about it?

What, are we supposed to sterilize the current poplulation, and build a giant border fence?

[Mr. Answers]

Originally Posted by 5thIndian

--The dude ranch article speaks volumes of our human self indulgence and penchant for ruining good and sacred things, like beans. And, geez, do we have to have hottubs everywhere?

Priceless. I was gonna go to church this morning to, ya know, worship God. But I figured, hey, why worship God when there are fields and fields of holy beans that need tended?