in response to ROYWC's post about smaller towns in CO. ALL READ:) (Pueblo: ski resorts, crimes)

[CosmicWizard]

Katiana wrote:

Your friends may like PA's low cost of housing, but they will find low wages as well and an infrastructure that sucks.

Having spent over 20 years living in Pennsylvania, I'm inclined to agree with your assessment regarding the poor infrastructure, especially the roads. PA has always been considered to have the worst roads in the country. Having driven in every state except for South Dakota, that statement is absolutely true. I lived between Allentown & Reading about 60 miles from Philly, so the wages in my part of PA were actually pretty decent...but the roads sucked!

In addition to the poor roads all over the state, there is the really crappy weather to deal with. Jazz, you're friends are in for a rude awakening! After a few weeks in the dreadful greyness of PA, they'll be pining to return to Colorado....just to see the sun again if for no other reason. If they don't mind being robbed at the toll booth, after driving just a few miles on the PA turnpike, they'll never want to see another lane division wall again. ( There's a damn wall separating the east lanes from the west lanes for the entire length of the turnpike. It's like driving thru a construction zone for 300 miles. It's by far the worst expressway I've ever driven on, and you gotta pay an arm and a leg for the 'privelege' of doing so. yikes! ). The alternative, I-80 thru northern PA is still toll free to my knowledge, but you'll pay a toll anyway in the form of a front end alignment from all of the pot holes and bumps. This doesn't include your therapist bill after battling the NYC to Chicago 18 wheelers for 300 miles.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Your friends may like PA's low cost of housing, but they will find low wages as well and an infrastructure that sucks.

Well, they live in rural Colorado, and the jobs they are looking at in Pennsylvania pay considerably better than where they are in Colorado--and housing costs are about 1/4 compared to where they live in Colorado. As for infrastructure--my experience traveling in Pennsylvania (and, yes, I have traveled a chunk of the state) was that the transportation system--while not as "new" as some of Colorado's--wasn't too bad. I suspect the urban areas could be another story, but most of my travel there was in the rural parts of the state. They also have a pretty good passenger rail network that I found refreshing.

[lalahartma]

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

Katiana wrote:

Your friends may like PA's low cost of housing, but they will find low wages as well and an infrastructure that sucks.

Having spent over 20 years living in Pennsylvania, I'm inclined to agree with your assessment regarding the poor infrastructure, especially the roads. PA has always been considered to have the worst roads in the country. Having driven in every state except for South Dakota, that statement is absolutely true. I lived between Allentown & Reading about 60 miles from Philly, so the wages in my part of PA were actually pretty decent...but the roads sucked!

In addition to the poor roads all over the state, there is the really crappy weather to deal with. Jazz, you're friends are in for a rude awakening! After a few weeks in the dreadful greyness of PA, they'll be pining to return to Colorado....just to see the sun again if for no other reason. If they don't mind being robbed at the toll booth, after driving just a few miles on the PA turnpike, they'll never want to see another lane division wall again. ( There's a damn wall separating the east lanes from the west lanes for the entire length of the turnpike. It's like driving thru a construction zone for 300 miles. It's by far the worst expressway I've ever driven on, and you gotta pay an arm and a leg for the 'privelege' of doing so. yikes! ). The alternative, I-80 thru northern PA is still toll free to my knowledge, but you'll pay a toll anyway in the form of a front end alignment from all of the pot holes and bumps. This doesn't include your therapist bill after battling the 18 wheelers for 300 miles.

Now hold on! I grew up in western PA and the weather is not that bad!

Also, the infrastructure around here (CoS) will never catch up with the population explosion.

[CosmicWizard]

lalahartma wrote:

Now hold on! I grew up in western PA and the weather is not that bad!

Good weather, bad weather....it's all in the mind. In my mind, PA weather is bad weather!

[Katiana]

I grew up in W. PA, too, and the weather is, well, different, than here. It is gray and gloomy about 8 months a year, and not *that* much better in the summer.

Regarding the infrastructure, however, there is no doubt it is awful. The roads in eastern PA are supposedly better than those of western PA, so take what CosmicWizard said and double it for W PA. Rural PA is generally the central part of the state, probably even worse than the urban areas in the east and west.

The housing is cheaper there, yes, but you do get what you pay for, even there. You know this thread here about finished basements? Well, back there, a lot of the basements have dirt floors in those old houses.

[CosmicWizard]

Katiana wrote:

The housing is cheaper there, yes, but you do get what you pay for, even there. You know this thread here about finished basements? Well, back there, a lot of the basements have dirt floors in those old houses.

You got that right! Back in my high school days I spent my summers working for a small construction company in Montgomery county ( not too far from Philly ) that focused on remodeling and additions. In those 1900 era homes that we remodeled ( and those homes weren't exactly cheap ) or added on to, there was no such thing as a level floor or a plumb wall. Dirt basements were the norm. The wiring always needed to be repalced. The money saved on buying one of those older, cheaper PA homes, is highly likely to be spent anyway on getting the home up to code....and having a SAFE home to live in. There is some truth to the saying...You get what you pay for!

[Sockeye]

We attended a cousin's wedding last June in PGH and were very impressed. Stayed in University Park and pretty much toured the whole downtown. Most of the soot from the steel mills days has been powerwashed off the grand, old buidings, and there appears to be a bit of a rebirth going on in certain parts of the city. Seemed like a lot of rail transport, too. Learned that as cities go, only Venice, Italy has more bridges than PGH. Lots of happy appearing collegiate types - I didn't realize how much higher ed is around there. We had great weather, too. 75-80* and partly cloudy with a light breeze all 4 days-I know, we lucked out on that. Phipp's Observatory, Shenley Park, the rivers tour, all absolutely beautiful. We capped it off at that nicely restored old passenger train station The Concours, I think its called?

[Josseppie]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Let's see the list of major Colorado industrial employers that have either left Colorado, gone out of business, or are a shadow of their former selves in the state:

Great Western Sugar
Holly Sugar
CF&I Steel
Schwader Brothers (Samsonite luggage)
Gates Rubber

That's just a few. There are numerous other companies that used to have large corporate presences in Colorado that have downscaled those operations significantly--usually eliminating the higher paying jobs. No, this is not just happening in Colorado, but Colorado did not have a huge industrial base to begin with, so when such a company "bails," it's gonna leave a mark.

Jazzlover,

CF&I steel is now Rocky Mountain Steel. Smaller then they use to be but still a major part of the economy in Pueblo. In fact they have a new building that can make rails 300 feet long, the only place in America that can do that! BTW every time you use light rail in Denver you ride rails that were made right here in Pueblo, and they just got permission to make even more this year due to the increase in demand.

And we have added Vesta's Production facility which when completed will take close to 1,000 acers, the main building being 7000,000 sq feet, and be the largest of its kind in the world!

Here is a aticle about Rocky mountain steel since you think it has closed up down here!

There is nothing pretty about a steel mill; they are dirty, dangerous, and if you are the owner, it is a tough way to make a living. Today, just a handful of steel mills remain in the U.S., and Steel in Pueblo is one of them, still making a go of it 10 years after Oregon Steel acquired the former CF & I Steel Corporation mill through a bankruptcy sale.

Working with the Pueblo Economic Development Council, Oregon Steel purchased the mill, which needed hundreds of millions of dollars in environment and safety upgrades, not to mention industry upgrades to make it more competitive in the production of steel.
There was great concern that the mill would close when it went into bankruptcy, but Oregon Steel's purchase kept the mill going. It was reported the Pueblo community would take a $75 million hit if the mill closed. In a news conference at the mill Monday, Rob Simon, RMSM's vice president and general manager, said the past decade brought "significant changes to the mill."
"We are excelling at a time when the steel industry is in disarray," said Simon, who lives in Colorado Springs. "Right now, Rocky Mountain Steel Mill is one of the few successful steel mills operating in the United States." Workers learned new skills, everyone became more efficient, and up to $200 million in modernization is what keeps RMSM in the picture, Simon said.
Much of the nation's steel comes from Japan, and other Pacific Rim nations with lower labor costs. However, the Pueblo mill remains a leader in steel for railroad track, and has diversified its roll-mill capability to produce more products. Modernization, combined with a hardening process few plants can achieve, enabled RMSM to become a leader in rail production. A decade ago, the mill shipped 203,465 tons of rail steel. Last year it shipped 384,139 tons. A decade ago, about 1,500 people worked at the mill; today, it is about 800.
The mill also has a state-of-the-art rod and bar mill that also doubled production from a decade ago, and in total, RMSM shipped 900,000 tons of steel last year - up from 615,000 tons in 1992.
The company reports it paid workers $55 million last year (wages and benefits), and many of the old-timers live nearby. The old neighborhood near the steel mill is comprised of people who worked hard for 30 and 40 years at the mill. Their children work there now, although many encourage their kids to go to college and escape the mill life.

[ottodog]

Originally Posted by drb85650

It's so sweet to see that the "I've moved here, now close the door and don't let anyone else in" creed is still going strong from the 70's!

No moving here, we've got the "old fart" pioneer plates.

Originally Posted by drb85650

Have they started selling the "Welcome to Colorado, now go home" bumper stickers again?

Man I miss those... Any chance of a comeback??

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by Sockeye

We attended a cousin's wedding last June in PGH and were very impressed. Stayed in University Park and pretty much toured the whole downtown. Most of the soot from the steel mills days has been powerwashed off the grand, old buidings, and there appears to be a bit of a rebirth going on in certain parts of the city. Seemed like a lot of rail transport, too. Learned that as cities go, only Venice, Italy has more bridges than PGH. Lots of happy appearing collegiate types - I didn't realize how much higher ed is around there. We had great weather, too. 75-80* and partly cloudy with a light breeze all 4 days-I know, we lucked out on that. Phipp's Observatory, Shenley Park, the rivers tour, all absolutely beautiful. We capped it off at that nicely restored old passenger train station The Concours, I think its called?

There's not a lot of rail transport. They have a light rail system, but it is not even as extensive as Denver's. The Grand Concourse is the name of the old train station on the South Side. Did you go up the incline?