Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I hope Pueblo doesn't make the same mistake as most other US metro areas by building huge swaths of auto-dependent suburban sprawl with mediocre or poor mass transit. It does sound like they are going to do a good job of haivng a real downtown...but that development north of town sounds like major auto-dependent sprawl.
Pueblo and the developers of Pueblo Springs are working on mass transit systems but the reality of the situation is Pueblo's size is still too small for many forms of mass transit. So until Pueblo's population tops 1 million people, and that won't be for a long time, you won't see the kind of mass transit systems that you find in cities like Denver or Boston. As far as the sprawl, every major city has some sprawl but, IMO, the key is to keep it down as much as possible. Even with Pueblo Springs Pueblo will be less then half the area of Colorado Springs yet able to have just as many if not more people then they do at build out. While not perfect, no city is, I like how Pueblo is planing its future developments and it should be fun to watch. One example is the area around CSU Pueblo. Pueblo could go the fast and easy route like many cities do around their universities and build big box stores with large parking lots but instead we are taking a vision approach and developing the new developments like Thunder Village in a new urbanism style with dense living and walkable streets to give a incentive for students to leave their car's at their residence and walk to and from school or take mass transit. It might take longer to get built up but when it does will be a much nicer neighborhood for students to live in then other new universities where nothing but big box stores and spread out apartment buildings where built fast.
As far as the downtown. Pueblo is working on having a first class downtown and that is something I am very proud of as most cities seem to have forgotten their downtown. I especially like the idea for doubling the size of the convention center and Riverwalk, its only half done, and Memorial hall and how they want to make the historic train depot in downtown the southern hub for HSR in the Rocky Mountain region. When its all completed I can only imagine how downtown will be as it should rival some of the larger downtown's it the country. That is one reason I continue to call Pueblo "Colorado's second city".
Last edited by Josseppie; 06-14-2010 at 02:34 PM..
Pueblo and the developers of Pueblo Springs are working on mass transit systems but the reality of the situation is Pueblo's size is still too small for many forms of mass transit. So until Pueblo's population tops 1 million people, and that won't be for a long time, you won't see the kind of mass transit systems that you find in cities like Denver or Boston. As far as the sprawl, every major city has some sprawl but, IMO, the key is to keep it down as much as possible. Even with Pueblo Springs Pueblo will be less then half the area of Colorado Springs yet able to have just as many if not more people then they do at build out. While not perfect, no city is, I like how Pueblo is planing its future developments and it should be fun to watch.
I'm glad Pueblo seems to be learning from the mistakes of other nearby metro areas. I can understand why people would not be in favor of New York or Chicago style population density, but I think people do need to realize that if you don't want to sit in traffic your whole life, you need good mass transit, which also requires more density than many American cities have.
AS far as needing 1,000,000 people for a decent transit system.....that just doesn't compute for me at all.
I just got back from a trip to Germany & Austria. Cities like Salzburg and Innsbruck have far less than 1,000,000 people. In fact, Innsbruck has about 117,000 people (somewhat more in metro area, but not that many more) and has great mass transit. There is some density but it really didn't feel crowded to me at all. It's certainly not super dense like New York, Chicago or Boston.
If you wait until after a city/metro area has 1,000,000+ people, instead of building one as you go along, the systems take a lot more $$$ to put in because you're putting in a system in areas that are already built up--and usually built up without transit in mind.
It can be done. It's just that Americans are clueless when it comes to transit.
I'm glad Pueblo seems to be learning from the mistakes of other nearby metro areas. I can understand why people would not be in favor of New York or Chicago style population density, but I think people do need to realize that if you don't want to sit in traffic your whole life, you need good mass transit, which also requires more density than many American cities have.
AS far as needing 1,000,000 people for a decent transit system.....that just doesn't compute for me at all.
I just got back from a trip to Germany & Austria. Cities like Salzburg and Innsbruck have far less than 1,000,000 people. In fact, Innsbruck has about 117,000 people (somewhat more in metro area, but not that many more) and has great mass transit. There is some density but it really didn't feel crowded to me at all. It's certainly not super dense like New York, Chicago or Boston.
If you wait until after a city/metro area has 1,000,000+ people, instead of building one as you go along, the systems take a lot more $$$ to put in because you're putting in a system in areas that are already built up--and usually built up without transit in mind.
It can be done. It's just that Americans are clueless when it comes to transit.
In many ways its good Pueblo grew last as we can learn from the mistakes that Denver and Colorado Springs made and in the case of Colorado Springs continue to make. I am a homer but I think Pueblo will be a much better city when our msa is 600,000 people then Colorado Springs is now.
I would not say we are clueless but our cities are different. I have been to Europe and there cities are built in a way that works for mass transit. For example Pueblo is 160,000 people and we never have traffic jams unless there is some kind of major accident. Even when Pueblo grows to 250,000 people or even 500,000 people I can't imagine the traffic will be that bad. I do agree that Pueblo needs to start the process of planning a mass transit system for when the day comes we need one so they can easily implement it. In fact they have one in the codes for Pueblo Springs but right now with our size and tax base its like a college student saving money for retirement on a 8 dollar a hour job when he can use that money now for a better use then save when he is hopefully making more money once he graduates from college.
First off I want to say that was a great post, got me to think.
A lot of what we have been talking about is sprawl so I want to explain more by what I think is good and bad sprawl. I have traveled all over Europe and seen the large and small towns. I think the small towns, lets say under 250,000 people, have to little sprawl. I know it works for them and I am not judging I am saying that for me it feels like one big downtown with little to no residential areas. That is great in a large city but I think one of the benefits of living in a smaller town is you have nice residential areas not far from the urban center. That is essentially how I came up with how I would like to see Pueblo grow. I think that cities need a vibrant and strong downtown and should use tax money to help make their downtown as strong as it can be. That is what Pueblo has done and continues to do. Some of the examples are the Sangre De Cristo art center, Memorial hall for musicals, the Riverwalk that was built by taxpayers and a convention center and a downtown ice skating rink and baseball stadium and outdoor amphitheater, not many towns have that. In fact Pueblo is in the process of expanding the convention center making it almost 100,000 square feet along with more developments to make the Riverwalk area great. Here is a picture and map of the proposed project:
At same time I, also, think cities need more then just a thriving downtown to be successful. Some examples include tech parks, industrial parks, medical parks and business parks. Pueblo is doing that as we have southern Colorado's largest industrial park, great medical parks that serve all of southern Colorado and business parks and in development is the states largest tech park. Then I think cities need great residential areas for people to live in that is not dense like a urban area yet not spread out like you find in the rural areas. I think Pueblo manages that great but cities like Colorado Springs do not. Another thing a city needs is a strong and relatively well known university. For years that is one thing Pueblo lacked and Denver was the reason as they always blocked it. Personally I think they were worried what would happen as Pueblo managed to grow to 100,000 and was the states second largest city without a major univeristy. Then in the 1960's Pueblo had a strong senator who got us a 4 year college and over the years it has grown so now it is Colorado State University - Pueblo and is the states fastest growing university. So I think Denver's fears are coming true as Pueblo managed to be 100,000 people with no university so now that we have one there is no limit to our potential.
All of these areas need to be connected by mass transit and pueblo does that but as in most cities it could be better. That being said pueblo has a better mass transit system then even Colorado Springs as we are not afraid to fund it. We have a bus system and the main transit building is in downtown. Pueblo is already working on a form of light rail along the Riverwalk in downtown and in the master plan for Pueblo Springs it calls for a mono rail system. Pueblo is, also, lucky in that we are the cross roads for southern Colorado so as Colorado gets a HSR Pueblo is the natural hub for the Colorado and New Mexico line thus causing Amtrak to move here again. What that will do is really make Pueblo mass transit centered this century as we will have more people using it then the local population would indicate as Pueblo becomes a large hub city. Consequently you should see more light rail lines in pueblo then most cities of similar size in the United States has.
Now I, also, think that cities need to work on their road network as well as, like it or not, cars will be around for a long time. That is why I support some of the projects Pueblo does with the major north south interstate, I-25, and the major east- west highway, highway 50, as well as the other major roads as they have help make Pueblo the economic and shopping hub for a 20 county region.
Finally last but not least cities need to work on the older parts of the city and not just focus on the new parts. I am all for growth and new developments as I think they are needed if a city wants to grow but I do not like how Colorado Springs does so at the expense of its current areas. For example they approved "urban renewal" for a new mall on land that is currently farm land. First off that is not urban renewal and secondly they can barely support their current malls. So why have a new one only to have a current mall go under and have that area become blighted? Pueblo on the other hand, while not perfect, uses urban renewal for what it was intended, urban renewal. There has been some border line projects and one is the development around CSU Pueblo but Pueblo had no choice as it was built north east of town and one of the issues has been lack of "walkable" neighborhoods around it. So instead of doing what most towns do and allow any type of development Pueblo zoned a walkable area called Thunder Village that when complete will be a little urban area for college students to live work and play. That should really make CSU Pueblo attractive to students in the next 10 to 20 years and once that happens will cause more students to come here and that will cause more companies to move here. Now in order to accomplish this the city did designate that area "urban renewal" and while not great at least they are doing it to make a urban area around a existing university and not more shopping from farm land. What Pueblo usually does is take downtown or the east side or south side by Lake ave and designate those urban renewal so they can use local tax money to make that are better. I was at the Lake Ave urban renewal project meeting tonight and when complete should make that area vibrant again like it was back in the 1950's and 1960's.
I know this was a big post but I wanted to really let you know how I felt about urbanism and sprawl and my ideas don't really fit into any one camp so they are hard to explain properly.
Edit:
I want to add that I read livecontent post after I posted this one and it did a better job of going into detail on the specifics of Pueblo transit then I have ever done. I agree and would add that I think as Pueblo grows we need more night bus service and I can say that I would be more then willing to raise my taxes a bit to provide that service for our residents.
Edit 2:
I do want to add that Boulder and Pueblo are complete opposite cities. Sure both are democrat but Boulder is the elite crowd and Pueblo is the working class town, not that either is bad, just different with different philosophies. Plus the layout of the towns are much different as Boulder is built around the university and has growth limits and Pueblo is centered around downtown and industrial parks and medical parks, university and the airport etc. What this does it make mass transit easier to operate in Boulder with more riders where in Pueblo they need to cover a larger area and more then one important area with less people as college riders use mass transit more. That is one reason I am so excited about CSU Pueblo and Thunder Village as it is really giving something Pueblo lacked for decades and if we grew without it imagine what we can do with a major university! That is why I constantly write about it and keep up on it as it is, IMO, the best thing to happen to pueblo ever!
Last edited by Josseppie; 06-16-2010 at 10:50 PM..
This picture shows how the parking garage is used for public events on the Riverwalk.
Congratulations to the Urban Renewal Authority of Pueblo!
This is from the Chieftain:
The Urban Renewal Authority of Pueblo has received a national community development award for its fast work in financing the construction of the four-story parking building at 101 S. Main St.
I was in downtown Pueblo for the Broadway series last night and took some pictures. Being at Memorial Hall really got me excited for the renovation that will take place following this season. I have a feeling they will get a lot more Broadway shows once it is completed.
Memorial Hall
A picture of the Riverwalk with the Chirstmas lights.
A new picture on the construction of the new building on the Riverwalk
There was a fire on the river bank of the Fountain River next to downtown. I went out and took some pictures of the fire and associated traffic jam.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Urban Renewal gets national award
Pueblo fire
