What city has the better downtown, Pueblo or Colorado Springs? (Denver: sales, lofts)

[Josseppie]

Pueblo is the ONLY city in the state of Colorado built on the site of a fort. We recently found it and it was located in what is now downtown. So they built a repilca and a musem.

[Josseppie]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

The biggest thing that came out of the flood to hurt Pueblo was the political trade to get the levees built. The levee construction bonds were tied on the statewide ballot to another bond issue to fund the construction of the Moffat railroad tunnel west of Denver. That eventually allowed the Denver & Rio Grande Western Railroad to achieve a direct Denver connection to Salt Lake City and Ogden, Utah (and points west) in the 1930's, without having to travel from Denver to Pueblo, thence westward. That did more than anything to cement Pueblo's decline that occurred in the years following.

This was another case of that rather repugnant political horse-trading that goes on. The proponents of the Moffat Tunnel knew that they did not have the votes statewide to get the tunnel bond issue passed, and Pueblo knew it did not have the votes to get the flood control bonds passed. So, an uneasy political "compromise" was reached to get enough votes to pass both issues. At the time, I think the Pueblo interests knew they were selling a good chunk of their future down the river, so to speak, by supporting the Moffat Tunnel issue, but it probably was a trade they were willing to make to get the levee, even though it probably compromised a lot of Pueblo's economic opportunities for decades afterward.

By the way, it was William Jackson Palmer, founder of the Denver & Rio Grande Railroad, who basically decided much of the character of both Colorado Springs and Pueblo. He and his affluent friends decided that the more agreeable climate and setting of Colorado Springs dictated that it would become the tourist and "high society" center for southern Colorado, while hot, dusty Pueblo--but hard against the Arkansas River--would become the industrial center for southern Colorado. That is why Palmer located his Colorado Coal & Iron works--later Colorado Fuel & Iron (CF&I) in Pueblo. Neither Colorado Springs nor Pueblo has ever really escaped the die that both towns were cast in back in the late 1870's and early 1880's.

A little history lesson for people to chew on.

That is true, wow I find my self agreeing with you a lot today. I have a queston for you. What do you think Pueblo would be like today if the flood had not happened and denver did not get the rail road tunnel? Or if the flood would of happened but Pueblo did not make the deal so Denver did not get the moffit tunnel? And were the leaders back then stupid or did they have no other choice?

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by Josseppie

That is true, wow I find my self agreeing with you a lot today. I have a queston for you. What do you think Pueblo would be like today if the flood had not happened and denver did not get the rail road tunnel? Or if the flood would of happened but Pueblo did not make the deal so Denver did not get the moffit tunnel? And were the leaders back then stupid or did they have no other choice?

That's hard to know. I think it would be fair to say that had Pueblo not had the flood, it is unlikely that a majority of Colorado voters would have voted for the Moffat railroad tunnel. In fact, an initiative to finance the building the Moffat Tunnel, a railroad tunnel under Marshall Pass between Salida and Gunnison, and a railroad tunnel somewhere between Alamosa and Durango had failed a year or two earlier. That initiative was vehemently opposed by the Pueblo interests because they saw the Moffat Tunnel as a threat. So, as the saying goes, politics often makes strange bedfellows, and that is what the Pueblo flood did.

Were the leaders stupid? No. As is often the case in politics, the political leaders were not confronted with making a good choice or bad choice, or a "smart" or "dumb" choice--they rather were confronted with making the lesser of two somewhat unpalatable choices. As so sadly happens in those circumstances, though, the less unpalatable choice at the time often has long-range negative effects that will often outweigh the shorter term benefits of the choice that is made. That is something that should be seriously thought about right now--we are making a lot of short-term decisions about our country and state that seem to make sense right now, but that may have extremely bad long-term consequences. But, that is for another thread.

[McGowdog]

Yikes! What a muddy mess. I wonder what the casualties were. And nice history Jazz.

I like CoSprings downtown pretty well too and I saw a pic from RyanF (that mechanic) from the Springs that included the downtown with Pikes Peak as a back drop. It was an incredible shot and hard to beat.

Neither of these places have some huge 40 or even 30+ story skyscrapers. But they both look fairly historical with a lot of masonary which is typical of most any SE Colorado town. Pound for pound, I think Salida has a really nice downtown/main street.

I'm gonna try to dig up Ryanfreak's pic and post it here just to balance things out;



Credit Ryanek9freak for that! This came from a Colorado Springs Mountain pic in MFBE's link sticky here. There are some pics in there that show Garden of the Gods in the backdrop and are incredible.

Oh, but that's off topic.

I don't know if it's just me, but I'm getting polled out. After Denver beat Mighty LA into submission, I'm taking a poll vacation.

Originally Posted by Josseppie

...but Pueblo has spent more time and money in ours. We have a Riverwalk that will eventually lead to a baseball stadium with a major convention center and performing art center complex.

Right now they are all on the small side, especially compared with Denver, but Pueblo has plans to expand them as Pueblo grows, that is why I believe downtown Pueblo...

So, Pueblo has, without a doubt, the best theoretical downtown in the world bar none! Just wait. We're not in Kansas anymore Toto.

[Josseppie]

The Springs downtown has a better back drop but Pueblo has spent more time and money in ours. We have a Riverwalk that will eventually lead to a baseball stadium with a major convention center and performing art center complex.

Right now they are all on the small side, especially compared with Denver, but Pueblo has plans to expand them as Pueblo grows, that is why I believe downtown Pueblo will always be a important part of Pueblo.

[Josseppie]

McGowDog said:

"So, Pueblo has, without a doubt, the best theoretical downtown in the world bar none! Just wait. We're not in Kansas anymore Toto."

In takes theory and planing to have a great downtown, without any planning you will never have any kind of major developments. With that in mind I want to explain what I mean when I say that Pueblo's downtown has a brighter future then Colorado Spring's downtown.

Let me start with the Riverwalk. It currently runs from the historic part of downtown Pueblo to Sante Fe Ave. The long range plans are to extend it under Sante Fe and I-25 to Runyon Lake and Runyon Baseball stadium. We will have shops, restaurants, entertainment venues, and condos that line the area. It will be a nice walkable area for future generations. I can even see a minor league team moving in the stadium someday, how great would that be. Then, we could use the lake area for more condos, restaurants and shops.

Next I want to look at the Pueblo Convention Center. It is currently about 25,000 square feet and the city wants to double it to 50,000 square feet and there is no reason it could be 250,000 square feet in the next 20 years as there is more then enough room. As it grows it will draw more conventions to Pueblo creating a busier downtown with more hotels and restaurants that cater to major conventions. Due to Pueblo's warmer weather we are a natural place to have major conventions in Colorado.

The Sangre De Cristo art complex. That is a great place and they have a great theater. They also want to build a new one that will be larger then anything we have now. I have not heard any details but I would guess it would have to hold about 5,000 people. That would allow pueblo to attract first class Broadway shows that currently only go to Denver. Pueblo, also, wants to re-model memorial hall. That would allow us to get better shows as well. Given our location in southern Colorado, we are a natural as people can come from all over to see the shows.

The business district, or as I like to call it up town. It is the economic hub of southern Colorado and has the ability to have sky scrapers just as tall as any in Denver and they would not look out of place. Until Pueblo's economy collapsed in the 1980's high rises were being built, in fact Pueblo still has more then Colorado Springs. Now that we have re-developed our economy life is coming back to that area. I can see a few built once the economy recovers in the coming decade. Having some would make Pueblo instantly look like a larger city.

Government, given our location we are a natural for more regional government offices. Pueblo is going to get a federal court and we have a regional FBI office among others. That will help solidify Pueblo as a hub city.

One difference between Pueblo and Colorado Springs is that the downtown is and always will be the center of Pueblo. We will grow out, with developments like Pueblo Springs and the Colorado Energy park and the new industrial park south of town, but since we are not by the mountains Pueblo can and will grow in a circular fashion. That will always keep the focus on downtown, thus, we will always have a larger downtown then the Springs, even if they remain the larger city.

[Proleadership03]

Former Colorado Springs's Downtown Company!



The Riverwalk's 1921 Great Flood Wall!



New River View At Union is Top Dollar Condos for the riverwalk!

[reginhild]

Originally Posted by Josseppie

Pueblo is the ONLY city in the state of Colorado built on the site of a fort. We recently found it and it was located in what is now downtown. So they built a repilca and a musem.

??? What about Colorado towns like Fort Garland, Fort Morgan, Fort Collins, Fort Lupton, Julesburg (Fort Sedgwick), .......?

[Josseppie]

Originally Posted by reginhild

??? What about Colorado towns like Fort Garland, Fort Morgan, Fort Collins, Fort Lupton, Julesburg (Fort Sedgwick), .......?

This is from the offical Pueblo web page:

"The City of Pueblo has a long and colorful history dating back to 1842 when it was called Fort Pueblo.

What brought our city from a small Fort in southern Colorado, to the backbone of Colorado, were the ore mines. This area once housed four separate towns: Pueblo, South Pueblo, Central Pueblo and Bessemer. These four towns together now make up the City of Pueblo. "

Other towns where built near forts but Pueblo was the only city built on the actual site of a fort.

Some town's have fort in their them but there was never a fort located there. One example is Fort Collins, I could be wrong but I was always told there was never a "Fort Collins".

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by reginhild

??? What about Colorado towns like Fort Garland, .......?

Fort Garland?!?!?!?! What about it? What a mecca that place is! Population 432.

Pueblo was at a true crossroads of the Santa Fe Trail and a stop on the way to the mountains in search of gold and silver. A safe haven perhaps in an area where Ute Indians killed everything that moved. Hard to settle outside of this area and it helped if you knew a guy named Autobees.