What city has the better downtown, Pueblo or Colorado Springs? (Denver: 2009, city hall)

[Josseppie]

Taking into account historic buildings, walk ability, amentias, special districts, growth potential, etc. What city, Pueblo or Colorado Springs has the better downtown. Provide examples and pictures would be great. This is limited only to the downtown's of Pueblo and Colorado Springs.

[Josseppie]

I pick Pueblo as I think we have the best historic areas, better amentias such as the Riverwalk and baseball stadium and Sangre De Cristo arts center and convention center. Pueblo also spends more money in our downtown so I think we have a better growth potential were there are already highrise's planned for when the economy bounces back.











Some pictures I took of downtown Pueblo during the blizzard of 2009

[jazzlover]

Josseppie, I'm sure someone could knock you over with a feather when I say this, but I much prefer the downtown area of Pueblo over Colorado Springs. Pueblo's downtown has far more preserved history--some very nicely restored buildings. Now, the reason it has that is because Pueblo did not boom in the last 40 years or so the way Colorado Springs did. A lot of the historical downtown of Colorado Springs was bulldozed for newer construction, beginning in the 1950's--lost forever. So, you should be very careful with your constant pining for huge growth in Pueblo--because it was the lack of it that left a downtown area that could be restored to what it is today. When out-of-control rapid growth competes with historical preservation, the ****ing growth usually wins.

[Josseppie]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Josseppie, I'm sure someone could knock you over with a feather when I say this, but I much prefer the downtown area of Pueblo over Colorado Springs. Pueblo's downtown has far more preserved history--some very nicely restored buildings. Now, the reason it has that is because Pueblo did not boom in the last 40 years or so the way Colorado Springs did. A lot of the historical downtown of Colorado Springs was bulldozed for newer construction, beginning in the 1950's--lost forever. So, you should be very careful with your constant pining for huge growth in Pueblo--because it was the lack of it that left a downtown area that could be restored to what it is today. When out-of-control rapid growth competes with historical preservation, the ****ing growth usually wins.

LOL. Someone can knock me down with a feather.

Now its my turn to surprise you. I actually agree with you, yes I want downtown Pueblo to grow and yes I want highrise's but no I don't want uncontrolled growth and I have been one of the vocal people yelling at city hall when they were going to tear down some historic buildings for "re-development". Pueblo has plenty of room and buildings that need to be torn down that there is NO reason any historic building needs to be touched.







Here are some historic buildings that the city wanted to tear down for a parking lot for a new larger auditorium the art center wants to build. Now I know Pueblo needs one but there are other options available, one is to build a larger parking garage at the current parking lot for the convention center and use it for the art center as well. In the end the city did not tear down the buildings and in fact fixed them up!

[Bullitt007]

You Pueblo-lovers may want to read this article:

KRDO.com Colorado Springs, Pueblo - Weather, News, Sports - FEMA Delivers Bad News To Pueblo

OUCH!

[Josseppie]

I saw and this is not only bad news for Pueblo but for many cities from Montana down to New Mexico. For example in Fort Collins they want to put their downtown and CSU in a 100 year flood plain!

As far as Pueblo all we have to do is certify the Arkansaw river levee. The problem is it was built back in 1921 thus no one has papers. As soon as it gets certified then there will be no issue.

This is a better story from the Pueblo Cheftain:

"After damaging floods in 1921 and 1965, Pueblo and the federal government worked in partnership to come up with solutions that protect historically flooded areas like Downtown from such killer storms."

and

"The estimated cost of certifying all the levees is $720,000,"

The link : http://www.chieftain.com/articles/2009/04/08/news/local/doc49dc3203542a3251279767.txt

[jazzlover]

If you want to read a great history about the Pueblo flood, find this book (long out of print, but frequently available on used books sites like AbeBooks Official Site - New & Used Books, New & Used Textbooks, Rare & Out of Print Books ): "The Case of Train Number 3." It is a short book, published in 1956 by the Rocky Mountain Railroad Club in Denver. It was authored by Arthur Ridgway, who was the Assistant Chief Engineer of the Denver & Rio Grande Railway at the time of the Pueblo flood in 1921. Though centered somewhat on the impact of the flood on the railroad, it is a very good account of the flood, in general.

Also, if one goes to the Denver Public Library Western Collection website ( Denver Public Library: Western History Genealogy: Digital Images ), and does a search on "Pueblo Flood," there is a wealth of historic photos online. Many were taken just a day or so after the flood.

Below, a few:

[Josseppie]

Nice pictures. I wonder what Pueblo would be like today if the flood would not have happened. That one event caused a lot of companies to move to Denver and set Pueblo back years......

[Josseppie]

Here is a picture of Main street in Pueblo around 1900.



Here is what the train depot looks like today.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by Josseppie

Nice pictures. I wonder what Pueblo would be like today if the flood would not have happened. That one event caused a lot of companies to move to Denver and set Pueblo back years......

The biggest thing that came out of the flood to hurt Pueblo was the political trade to get the levees built. The levee construction bonds were tied on the statewide ballot to another bond issue to fund the construction of the Moffat railroad tunnel west of Denver. That eventually allowed the Denver & Rio Grande Western Railroad to achieve a direct Denver connection to Salt Lake City and Ogden, Utah (and points west) in the 1930's, without having to travel from Denver to Pueblo, thence westward. That did more than anything to cement Pueblo's decline that occurred in the years following.

This was another case of that rather repugnant political horse-trading that goes on. The proponents of the Moffat Tunnel knew that they did not have the votes statewide to get the tunnel bond issue passed, and Pueblo knew it did not have the votes to get the flood control bonds passed. So, an uneasy political "compromise" was reached to get enough votes to pass both issues. At the time, I think the Pueblo interests knew they were selling a good chunk of their future down the river, so to speak, by supporting the Moffat Tunnel issue, but it probably was a trade they were willing to make to get the levee, even though it probably compromised a lot of Pueblo's economic opportunities for decades afterward.

By the way, it was William Jackson Palmer, founder of the Denver & Rio Grande Railroad, who basically decided much of the character of both Colorado Springs and Pueblo. He and his affluent friends decided that the more agreeable climate and setting of Colorado Springs dictated that it would become the tourist and "high society" center for southern Colorado, while hot, dusty Pueblo--but hard against the Arkansas River--would become the industrial center for southern Colorado. That is why Palmer located his Colorado Coal & Iron works--later Colorado Fuel & Iron (CF&I) in Pueblo. Neither Colorado Springs nor Pueblo has ever really escaped the die that both towns were cast in back in the late 1870's and early 1880's.

A little history lesson for people to chew on.