From California To Colorado. Why??? (Denver, Boulder: middle-class, foreclosures, college)

[Ulysses61]

I can't believe anyone would seriously contend that cost of living is lower in California than in Colorado.

I am a native California and will retire to Colorado. One of the big reasons I will retiring to CO is because of the property taxes, state income tax and just a lower tax rate.

Right now I live in So. California and I pay $8500 a year in property taxes. For a much better and larger house in Colorado, I would pay $2000. In California I pay $4,000 in State Income Tax per year, in Colorado it would be less than $1,000.

Finally, Colorado exepts the first $48,000 of retirement income, California does not.

I can retire at 55 comfortably if I move to Colorado. If I stay in California, I'd have to work until 62 and there's no way I can hold out that long.

I don't want to suggest that the sole reason I will retire to CO is because of the tax rate. I also love the beauty, locale and attitude in the San Juans, where I want to go. Of course I will miss California, but I can't afford to remain here.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by Ulysses61

I can't believe anyone would seriously contend that cost of living is lower in California than in Colorado.

I am a native California and will retire to Colorado. One of the big reasons I will retiring to CO is because of the property taxes, state income tax and just a lower tax rate.

Right now I live in So. California and I pay $8500 a year in property taxes. For a much better and larger house in Colorado, I would pay $2000. In California I pay $4,000 in State Income Tax per year, in Colorado it would be less than $1,000.

Finally, Colorado exepts the first $48,000 of retirement income, California does not.

I can retire at 55 comfortably if I move to Colorado. If I stay in California, I'd have to work until 62 and there's no way I can hold out that long.

I don't want to suggest that the sole reason I will retire to CO is because of the tax rate. I also love the beauty, locale and attitude in the San Juans, where I want to go. Of course I will miss California, but I can't afford to remain here.

I have spent a number of years in public service and I am quite familiar with Colorado's tax system--property, sales, and income. Put bluntly, the system is a wreck. The Colorado income tax is about the only tax in the state that has some semblance of logic to it.

Colorado's sales tax system is so hopelessly complex and byzantine that it is very difficult for most businesses to legally comply with it. It is also so complex that the state has almost no way to capture "leakage" of sales tax from sales made into Colorado from out-of-state (which, contrary to popular belief, actually are legally subject to tax). The result is that Colorado merchants are automatically at a price disadvantage when trying to compete with out-of-state retailers in the marketplace. Nor are Colorado's "typical" sales tax rates low. In fact, they are some of the higher ones in the country. While the state sales tax is only 3%, the total tax typically charged, which includes local and state sales tax, is usually at least 6% and often well over 8%.

Property taxation is another mess. The actual appraisal and valuation system in Colorado for real estate taxation is one of the best and fairest in the U.S. Unfortunately, Colorado has two Constitutional Amendments (the 1982 Gallagher Amendment and the 1992 TABOR amendment) that make the tax assessment process based on those valuations inherently biased and unfair. Residential property owners will hate to hear this, but those two amendments actually have dropped the effective tax rate on residential property so low that, in most cases, those properties actually consume more tax revenue than they produce. Meanwhile, commercial and industrial property in Colorado pays over THREE TIMES the property tax on a dollar of fair market property value than does a residential homeowner. There is an old saying that if you tax something you get less of it and if you subsidize something you get more of it. The Colorado property tax system effectively taxes business and industry on property at near confiscatory rates and effectively subsidizes residential property owners. Is it any surprise that Colorado has a plethora of non-productive trophy houses and a withering industrial base? For a fair and equitable property tax system in Colorado, it would take doubling the effective tax rate on residential property and cutting the rate on commercial and industrial property by one half--even doing that would actually likely wind up costing the various subdivisions of government revenue.

Finally, thanks to the TABOR amendment, Colorado has set itself up for a complete fiscal train wreck in both state and local government in the next economic downturn (gee, I wonder when that will be?). The amendment effectively prevents government from accumulating any reserve for a time when revenues stagnate, while absolutely assuring that those revenues will decline to levels below what may even be necessary to provide basic services during any serious economic difficulties. All of this is also buried in the state Constitution where voters would have to vote to fix it (and probably raise taxes upon themselves--especially residential homeowners) in the middle of a fiscal crisis.

Bottom line: Over a decade of economic boom has masked Colorado's precarious fiscal condition from most Coloradans, save those who have actually had to try to administer the tax system. When the state's economy goes into recession or worse (note I say when, not if), Coloradans can expect either grossly decreased public services--including those in education, law enforcement, fire protection, to name a few--or significantly increased taxes at the very time that many taxpayers can least afford it. People thinking of relocating to Colorado based solely on its current tax climate need to think very seriously about that.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by Mark Kaplan

We are looking to leave LA for the simple reason that we do not want our kids to go to school out here. We cannot afford a place and private school for two. Also, I am a middle school teacher in East LA. There are 30 gangs in a ten block radius around the school. On Monday I showed up to work and found that over the weekend kids had thrown brown paint all over about twelve classroom doors and dragged their hands through it to spell F**K and other lovely greetings. Although they left my doors alone (only some minor graffiti), another teacher had fecal matter rubbed onto her doorknobs. You tell me, do you want your kids going to school there? On average less than half of the kids in CA test at the proficient level for reading and writing. LESS THAN HALF in the state!

Last week I picked oranges and squeezed fresh juice for my family. It was nice. Tomorrow I'll take my daughter to Disneyland. Nice. But if we can't afford to put them in a safe and effective learning environment, what do I care about orange juice and Mickey Mouse?

Is it unrealistic to move out to Thousand Oaks, Simi, Moorpark, or Santa Clarita? I know for a fact that Thousand Oaks (Conejo Valley USD) is top notch all the way (that's where we moved from). Homes are $350-$400/sqft. In Colorado you would get top notch public schools for about half that.

[zenkonami]

Originally Posted by Oceanaddict

Could you tell me why so many Californians leave such beauty and the ocean to boot just to live in Colorado?

I think Colorado is pretty to... but hey... the ocean, mountians, vineyards...

My question is WHY would you leave all of that to live in Colorado?

Thanks for the awnsers in advance as I am looking forward to hearing the responses.

Two words. Los Angeles.

In all seriousness, I'm only in L.A. because of the work. Colorado is far more my scene. Dry, Mountain / Southwest / Midwest (I like big wide open spaces nearby), I like the seasons, I like the environment there, I like the history (mining, exploring, science) , I like the schools (particularly the Universities) and I like not living in a city of over three million people. Sure, everyone tells me Denver will be that way one day, but the way things are going, most cities will be that way one day...of course, some of them will probably run out of water before then...

Right now I live 10 miles from the ocean, but on most days it takes me nearly an hour to get there. I don't mind a drive for my recreation (I presume it can take anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour to get into the mountains depending on where you are along the front range) but I'd rather be moving along with scenery than sitting at the umpteenth light on Melrose or at a standstill on the 405. I'm sure traffic in Denver can get bad sometimes, but until you've crawled five miles in two hours during rush hour in Los Angeles, I think it's hard to compare.

[preppyglam]

the thing is...you really dont see the beauty every single day (unless you live on oceanfront property, or you take PCH to work, etc.). for the majority of CA residents- you work a ton and you spend a lot of time on the freeways/streets in traffic.

the reasons we want to leave are these: too expensive for a young family to start their lives in a nice/decent area of california, bad traffic and having to arrange your day according to traffic patterns, bad public schools for my (future) children, tons of illegal immigrants literally draning our economy and slowing down our schools, very high cost of living for what you get (money doesnt go far).

the things i will miss- the perfect weather, my family and friends, my client base, saying i live in california (i have to admit, people usually think its cool).

we figure we can visit whenever we want since all my family and lots of my friends are here. plus, i have ties here with a business partner. and when we get established and/or retire, we can move back if we want- when we can actually afford it without it being a literal drain on our savings and future.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by preppyglam

the thing is...you really dont see the beauty every single day (unless you live on oceanfront property, or you take PCH to work, etc.). for the majority of CA residents- you work a ton and you spend a lot of time on the freeways/streets in traffic.

the reasons we want to leave are these: too expensive for a young family to start their lives in a nice/decent area of california, bad traffic and having to arrange your day according to traffic patterns, bad public schools for my (future) children, tons of illegal immigrants literally draning our economy and slowing down our schools, very high cost of living for what you get (money doesnt go far).

the things i will miss- the perfect weather, my family and friends, my client base, saying i live in california (i have to admit, people usually think its cool).

we figure we can visit whenever we want since all my family and lots of my friends are here. plus, i have ties here with a business partner. and when we get established and/or retire, we can move back if we want- when we can actually afford it without it being a literal drain on our savings and future.

If you think you are going to avoid all of the problems you list by moving to Colorado, I think that you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Most all of those issues are either already present in Colorado, or are germinating here quite quickly. In fact, the very influx of people trying to escape those problems elsewhere is only accelerating the spread of those same problems here. At present rates of growth, Colorado will be in the same sorry mess that much of California is in now within less than 10 years, maybe less than 5. It's no safe haven.

[EscapeCalifornia]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

If you think you are going to avoid all of the problems you list by moving to Colorado, I think that you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Most all of those issues are either already present in Colorado, or are germinating here quite quickly. In fact, the very influx of people trying to escape those problems elsewhere is only accelerating the spread of those same problems here. At present rates of growth, Colorado will be in the same sorry mess that much of California is in now within less than 10 years, maybe less than 5. It's no safe haven.

And by then, SoCal will be twice as bad as it is now and its already 10x as bad as Colorado.

[preppyglam]

so true EscapeCalifornia!

JazzLover- I dont think that any one place is perfect. There are trade offs no matter what. But, so far, Colorado matches us the best and I feel we will be happier there in CO, rather than here in CA. For us, the major positives for CO are the low home prices in nice areas and the weather (finding a compromise between husband's home town of chicago and mine in CA isnt easy!). I can put up with whatever bad traffic you guys think you have. Its impossible for it to be worse than LA- and we are (sadly) used to that 1:45 to 2:45 hour, 40 mile commute from orange county (each way!).

Also, to give you an idea of california real estate. An average, old, small track house in a crappy area (thing westminster, santa ana, garden grove) would go for at least 500,000- even in this market. its sick. any house of similar type in a decent city (think fountain valley, tustin, anaheim hills, etc.) tack on a few 100,000 +/-. new homes or old homes in *nice* cities (think some beach cities, irvine, etc.) are in the 800,000-1.3M starting range- and thats not a custom build. thats for a run of the mill new cookie cutter tract house that probably has a flimsy gate to look cool upon entry. houses in the elite communities such as newport beach and corona del mar and pretty much all the really beautiful "california" lifestyle comminties are well into the 2M mark to start. its impossible to even have "nice" in a "decent" city- let alone have "beautiful" in a "nice" city.

so...colorado, here we come! for us, the trade offs are a no brainer! we are not willing to go broke to live an average, on all counts, life in CA. sick of 4 hours on the fwy + 8-10 hour workdays. sick of throwing rent checks, probably the size of your mortgage, out the window. sick of everything here.

[jazzlover]

I have to agree with the OP about one thing--you couldn't pay me enough to live in the ****hole that is southern California.

The problem is that all of the transplants from there (and other places) are bringing all of the same problems to Colorado--and fast. The reasons that is happening are 1) because of the sheer numbers of people relocating here; but, more importantly, 2) because about 99% of the people moving into Colorado from elsewhere are bringing with them the same suburban-sprawl-loving, automobile-centric, big-box retail/strip mall-dominated, water-sucking, resource-destroying, McMansion-desiring, debt-ridden, overconsumptive horse**** lifestyle that has made a place like southern California the unaffordable hell-hole that it is. If you want to know why so many old-line residents of this region resent the influx of outside growth, THAT IS WHY.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

I have to agree with the OP about one thing--you couldn't pay me enough to live in the ****hole that is southern California.

The problem is that all of the transplants from there (and other places) are bringing all of the same problems to Colorado--and fast. The reasons that is happening are 1) because of the sheer numbers of people relocating here; but, more importantly, 2) because about 99% of the people moving into Colorado from elsewhere are bringing with them the same suburban-sprawl-loving, automobile-centric, big-box retail/strip mall-dominated, water-sucking, resource-destroying, McMansion-desiring, debt-ridden, overconsumptive horse**** lifestyle that has made a place like southern California the unaffordable hell-hole that it is. If you want to know why so many old-line residents of this region resent the influx of outside growth, THAT IS WHY.

Actually, Big Box stores have more to do with the South than with southern California. Look at where stores like Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc are headquartered and where most of their stores are. Target and Best Buy are headquartered in Minneapolis. Wal-Mart does not do particularly well in California, especially given the size of the population. Big box stores are rampant everywhere in America-- from Bismarck, North Dakota to Atlanta, Georgia. If anything, California has LESS of them per capita than states in middle America or the south. You might want to get your facts straight before misplacing the blame.

I saw your other post today on the Colorado Springs forum, and despite what you say about yourself, there's no need to beat around the bush-- you hate Californians, you hate their guts. Just admit it. You are a trash talking hater. The logic of your argument is similar to one saying-- "I have a cousin who is half-black, so there's no way I can hate blacks-- I just think they are despicable people and the root of everything that's wrong in our society-- but I'm not a racist." Have you ever been to Southern California in your life? And when was the last time you were there-- 30 years ago? Maybe you should take a trip out there to see what it's like? I took an exploratory trip to LA about a month and a half ago. If anything, LA reminded me of Denver-- the old, core, historic, urban part of Denver. It didn't remind me of the big box stores Denver suburbs like the one I grew up in, or Phoenix, at all. Now, I'm not saying that I *love* Californians, but I don't *hate* them either. I think you need to make a critical distinction between young Californians who are moving to major metro areas like Denver and Phoenix to get a head start on life, and the older Californians who are retiring or buying second homes in the high country of Colorado. In terms of the second group, I largely agree with you. In terms of the first group, bug off and leave them alone.