Heating with Natural Gas vs Propane - Is One Better? (Denver: renter, home)

[DurangoJoe]

Originally Posted by Josseppie

I am not saying water heat is bad I just don't find the extra cost justified especially if you are going to have all the duct work for central air anyway but that is defiantly a personal choice.

I won't need central air living in Colorado but if I did, I'd still want hot water based heat. Much more comfortable in general.

Certainly a personal choice, but well worth the extra cost in my opinion. I'll gladly pay more for the additional comfort in my home.

[GreenScoutII]

I'll chime in on this one.....

As a licensed plumber in the state of Colorado, I have worked on more than a few hydronic systems. Yes, the major advantage is that every room can be put on it's own zone and controlled separately from the others if one so desires.

Also, what's known as a side arm tank can be run off of the boiler to supply the home's domestic hot water needs.

Hot water heat systems are almost always more fuel efficient as well, leading to lower utility bills for heating the same given volume of interior space.

That said, I think the majority of people are really better off with a forced air system (conventional furnace). The reason I think this way is that even the best designed hydronic system is considerably more complex than a forced air system. As such, any maintenence and repairs will cost more. Sometimes A LOT more. I've seen repair jobs on hot water systems exceed the cost to replace a conventional furnace entirely.

In floor heat, while really, really nice is even more problematic.

In short, a hydronic system is a lot like a Chrysler. Looks good and really impressive when it's running. The problem is keeping it running. In the back of your head you know, sooner or later, its gonna break down and cost a fortune to fix.....

A forced air system on the other hand is more like a Toyota. Boring, utilitarian, but dependable, easy to maintain, and generally less headache....

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by GreenScoutII

I'll chime in on this one.....

As a licensed plumber in the state of Colorado, I have worked on more than a few hydronic systems. Yes, the major advantage is that every room can be put on it's own zone and controlled separately from the others if one so desires.

Also, what's known as a side arm tank can be run off of the boiler to supply the home's domestic hot water needs.

Hot water heat systems are almost always more fuel efficient as well, leading to lower utility bills for heating the same given volume of interior space.

That said, I think the majority of people are really better off with a forced air system (conventional furnace). The reason I think this way is that even the best designed hydronic system is considerably more complex than a forced air system. As such, any maintenence and repairs will cost more. Sometimes A LOT more. I've seen repair jobs on hot water systems exceed the cost to replace a conventional furnace entirely.

In floor heat, while really, really nice is even more problematic.

In short, a hydronic system is a lot like a Chrysler. Looks good and really impressive when it's running. The problem is keeping it running. In the back of your head you know, sooner or later, its gonna break down and cost a fortune to fix.....

A forced air system on the other hand is more like a Toyota. Boring, utilitarian, but dependable, easy to maintain, and generally less headache....

In my hot water system, my total maintenance cost in over 15 years of operation has been the replacement of the control modules on two zone valves--not the valves themselves. About $200 total expense in 15+ years. That's it. When I had a forced air system in an earlier house, I probably spent at least $20 a year on filters alone. The only disadvantage of my hot water system is that my boiler is "only" about 90% efficient. The newer models hit 95%. Meanwhile, they're still selling cheap-ass forced air furnaces that are only 80% efficient. And, as you mention, the sidearm tank for hot water on a hot water boiler system is as efficient as the boiler itself--free-standing hot water tanks are still only about 80-85% efficient, at best. So, I'll take my hot water system over a forced air system--any day.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

In my hot water system, my total maintenance cost in over 15 years of operation has been the replacement of the control modules on two zone valves--not the valves themselves. About $200 total expense in 15+ years. That's it. When I had a forced air system in an earlier house, I probably spent at least $20 a year on filters alone. The only disadvantage of my hot water system is that my boiler is "only" about 90% efficient. The newer models hit 95%. Meanwhile, they're still selling cheap-ass forced air furnaces that are only 80% efficient. And, as you mention, the sidearm tank for hot water on a hot water boiler system is as efficient as the boiler itself--free-standing hot water tanks are still only about 80-85% efficient, at best. So, I'll take my hot water system over a forced air system--any day.

I've had both radiator and forced-air heat over the years, and have come to prefer a *good* forced air system over a hot water system. My condensing gas furnace has a 96 AFUE rating, so not all forced-air heat is cheap-a** or inefficient. Filtering the air of dust is a net positive for us--the three houses we lived in without central forced air all posed some extra challenges because of unfiltered dust, and having whole-house humidification with a piggyback humidifier on the air handler is also a huge plus for central air.

[DurangoJoe]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

In my hot water system, my total maintenance cost in over 15 years of operation has been the replacement of the control modules on two zone valves--not the valves themselves. About $200 total expense in 15+ years. That's it. When I had a forced air system in an earlier house, I probably spent at least $20 a year on filters alone. The only disadvantage of my hot water system is that my boiler is "only" about 90% efficient. The newer models hit 95%. Meanwhile, they're still selling cheap-ass forced air furnaces that are only 80% efficient. And, as you mention, the sidearm tank for hot water on a hot water boiler system is as efficient as the boiler itself--free-standing hot water tanks are still only about 80-85% efficient, at best. So, I'll take my hot water system over a forced air system--any day.

I would agree. Granted, the systems I installed myself in my houses over the years were all copper plumbing based. But that being said, the weak spots seemed to be the pumping and the electrical control systems. Either would occasionally fail although the replacements were easily done by an average homeowner and the replacement costs weren't through the roof. Control relays and new pumps could be had for under $100 so it was possible to keep a spare around the house. Unless you were using old (1/4 or 1/2 hp) pumps, replacement of either failed part was quick, easy, and required no plumbing. I believe that modern systems use PEX tubing instead of copper and more complex manifolding so I can't speak for any reliability issues there. The PEX certainly looks to be easy to work with.

The biggest problem that I have with forced air (besides the inherent dryness of the systems), is the dust. I am extremely allergic to household dust, and despite the duct cleaning & extensive filtering I've done with the system over the years, it just seems to make for a dusty house. Heating season with forced air heat is miserable for me with the allergies. I assume because you're moving all of the air in the house when it runs.

I installed a boiler based natural gas hot water baseboard system in my father's house in NE PA in 1982. Two zones, and my father was thrifty so one of the two pumps and both control relays were used. Since then, other than an occasional boiler tune-up by the gas company, just one pump & each of the control units have failed. Surprisingly, the pump that failed was the pump that was purchased new. Have had about 30 years with that system with minimal maintenance expense.

[proveick]

Pellet stove, nice radiant heat. RP

[darenblomerth]

Your spreadsheet is way off. I'm thinking these threads were authored by Natural Gas people. Propane is also a by product when refining Natural Gas as well as oil. Also good to know that there are 2.5 times as many BTUs in propane vs natural gas. You can't compare what someone else pays in there house or location. Their heating system may be very outdated. If you want to save on your heating and you currently use propane, upgrade your equipment and shop around for the best propane price available.

although, wood is certainly the cheapest if you own the land to cut your own. It heats you more than once: When you cut it, when you load it, when you haul it, when you unload it, when you stack it, and when you bring it in!

[McGowdog]

Well that's just incredible. I always thought that the sign He who cuts his own wood is twice warmed was bs. But I don't have a fireplace so I guess I would be 1.5 times warmed? Is that right?

All I know is how much the propane bozos charged me to have a 500 gallon yard bomb sitting on my property. The natural gas bill is way cheaper, as in we spend less money for it and the heat is just as hot. So I'm like once warmed and I'm fine with it. Except it's like summer now so I don't even want to think of heat now... because I'm hot.

Thanks for joining CityData to say that though. Wow.

[Mike from back east]

McDog, there's a reason that firms like Ferrell Gas (FGP) pay a 9.1% dividend to stockholders..... they charge a high rate for propane.

[Teckeeee]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

McDog, there's a reason that firms like Ferrell Gas (FGP) pay a 9.1% dividend to stockholders..... they charge a high rate for propane.

Good point never thought to look at that. Many years back when my Mom bought her place in Pagosa propane only at first. With only 2 propane suppliers 40 miles away in Bayfield there is price fixing and no competition. It cost 2k to switch the pipes etc over to natural gas and it was the best decision she made.