Moving from PA to either CO, WY or ID (Denver: credit, house)

[SoCoYippie]

I live in Pueblo and I love it here, but I don't think it would be the place for you. You having a range of $300K for a house gives you a lot to work with, so you can probably find some great land somewhere around Gunnison (near the Continental Divide) or near Durango (Pagosa Springs is absolutely gorgeous, but it is a resort community and could become annoying if you like a nice homey feel). Both communities are small enough that an insurance man can easily find work.

I don't pretend to know what folks make in Pennsylvania, but there seems to be a huge cost of living gap between here and the East Coast. Keep that in mind. Your salary will be much lower out here, probably, but things will cost so much less. If you live in a community like Gunnison, and bring in about $125K per year or so living in a $250-$300K house, you really could live like a fat rat out here.

[jazzlover]

First, until the real estate market finishes its implosion, you won't find much of anything in most mountain areas less than $300K--and much more than that in some places like Durango, etc.

Second, I laugh at the recommendation of Gunnison. I used to live there and it is a nice town. BUT, there is little there for less than $300K, jobs are scarce, and then there is the climate. Humid East cold is bad, but -40° to -50° (please note the minus sign) takes cold to whole new dimension--take my word for it.

I would add one other thing--I had a co-worker who relocated from central Pennsylvania to this region--wanting to live the "dream" of living in the West. Within less than 6 months, he was miserable. He hated that it was brown 8 months out of the year. He missed being able to take his choice of big cities to go to within a few hours of home. He found out that living costs were actually far higher--especially housing--compared to from where he had come, and salaries were actually lower. He never assimilated to living as a Westerner--he stuck out like a sore thumb among his co-workers, most all who were Rocky Mountain region natives. Some people move to this region from Pennsylvania and do fine--like Katiana who posts on this forum--but this guy sure didn't. And many don't--they are too hung up on the storybook fantasy about the West to recognize the reality of living here until it is too late.

[mpsgirl]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

Wyoming has a lot of mountains, too .... and most of those areas, like Colorado and Idaho, are rather "pricey" due to the views, tourism, and the "magic" of mountain living.

But to suggest that Wyoming is "VERY cheap" to live here is to display a lot of ignorance about the state ... the extractive industry "boom towns" will have your attention over their prices, and the tourist areas will also get your attention. As will the insanely overpriced areas around Jackson ... which rival some of the most expensive exclusive properties in the USA. Some of the small agrarian/ranching area towns may have some "inexpensive" land and housing nearby, but you'll be missing out on all the other requirements that the OP posted. And it's not cheap to live in these small town areas when you consider the time and distance to any major shopping or entertainment, or the daily commutes to schools or other routine daily events.

Please note that it's in the expensive "mountains" where the ski areas are to be found, which is what the OP wanted close access to.

Apparently you didn't bother to read what I wrote if you're going to call me ignorant. I'm aware that the mountains run through WY. You'll find the Rockies in parts of just about every state in the west. But, a LOT of WY is flat and VERY desert-y. Unless you want to live in the VERY expensive part of WY near Jackson Hole or Yellowstone, you're not going to find much for that stereotypical mountain feel/look. And living in WY is very cheap compared to ID and CO. I have family in Rock Springs, Green River, Casper, Laramie, Rawlins and Thermopolis. My father was born and raised in Green River and I've spent a lot of time there. What is "expensive" is the property taxes. My aunt and uncle in Green River pay twice in property taxes what we do here for a house the same size and much less land.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by 80skeys

Colder than heck in winter, but very nice, agreed.

I can't remember the numbers but I remember researching the weather in Spokane and Coeur d Alene and it wasn't any worse than most of Colorado.

[mpsgirl]

Originally Posted by wanneroo

I can't remember the numbers but I remember researching the weather in Spokane and Coeur d Alene and it wasn't any worse than most of Colorado.

I'm from Idaho and spent many winters up in northern Idaho. You're right, most of it isn't any worse than mountainous Colorado...just a lot more desolate up that way so it seems a lot worse. But, as would be expected, the higher in elevation you go, the worse the winters get.

[CosmicWizard]

Even when people spell out what they want, it's usually not cast in stone. They may see something not previously considered and fall in love with it. They may experience something they thought they didn't like and find out that they really like it. So, I wouldn't get too hung up on attempting to achieve a perfect match. I like 80skeys & Josseppies open-minded spirit and their willingness to provide options outside the box.



Jazzlover wrote:

First, until the real estate market finishes its implosion, you won't find much of anything in most mountain areas less than $300K--and much more than that in some places like Durango, etc.

Second, I laugh at the recommendation of Gunnison. I used to live there and it is a nice town. BUT, there is little there for less than $300K, jobs are scarce, and then there is the climate. Humid East cold is bad, but -40° to -50° (please note the minus sign) takes cold to whole new dimension--take my word for it.

Here's an interesting article ( GJ home prices, sales rising ) to read, but take it with a BIG BAG of salt. There are alot of homes on the market that have been on the market for months on end. Perhaps the real estate market in Grand Junction will implode or perhaps it will not. We'll have to wait and see how it pans out over the long haul. Right now however it is very s-l-o-w.

Believe it or not, there are places in Pennsylvania that have cold comparable to Gunnison, but with more humidity and far less sunshine, which makes the coldness more severe. Personally, I'm more comfortable in the type of cold found in Gunnison than I am in the cold of Pennsylvania or other eastern cold spots. On occassion, Brafdord, PA is the cold spot in the lower 48. In the late 70s the temperature in the Bradford area stayed below freezing for almost 50 consecutive days. Being so close to the great lakes, there's also lots of snow and cloudy days. Bradford being farther north than Gunnison also has slightly shorter daylight hrs than Gunnison in the winter. The alltime low in the Bradford area ( Smethport ) is 42 below zero. The mean temperature in Bradford for the month of January is 20.3 degrees compared to Gunnisons January mean of 9.6. So, going strictly by the thermometer, Gunnison is colder. Gauging it by the comfort factor which varies from person to person, I'll call it tossup.

Granted the OP lives in the Hershey area which does not experience the winter severity of Bradford, so based only on that I'd say the OP is not likey to have expereince with the severe cold weather. Gunnison winters would require a major adjustment.

[sunsprit]

Originally Posted by mpsgirl

Apparently you didn't bother to read what I wrote if you're going to call me ignorant. I'm aware that the mountains run through WY. You'll find the Rockies in parts of just about every state in the west. But, a LOT of WY is flat and VERY desert-y. Unless you want to live in the VERY expensive part of WY near Jackson Hole or Yellowstone, you're not going to find much for that stereotypical mountain feel/look. And living in WY is very cheap compared to ID and CO. I have family in Rock Springs, Green River, Casper, Laramie, Rawlins and Thermopolis. My father was born and raised in Green River and I've spent a lot of time there. What is "expensive" is the property taxes. My aunt and uncle in Green River pay twice in property taxes what we do here for a house the same size and much less land.

I can read, and I got your message pretty well.

Let me preface this by pointing out that I'm a 30+ year Eagle County multiple homeowner (Vail and downvalley), and I've lived in Colorado from 1964 through 1999 when I moved to my ranch in Wyoming ... so I'm more than familiar with property taxes and overall costs of living in both states.

I can say that most property taxes in Wyoming are "dirt cheap" compared to mountain property in Colorado. I'd love to pay the same mil levy in Vail as I do in Laramie County; and the valuation of my property is much much much higher in Vail than it is in Wyoming. My annual property tax bill on one house alone in Vail would pay the property taxes on my ranch in Wyoming for 6 years. Wyoming has a much lower level of public funded services than Colorado, hence lower taxes ... and has a much larger percentage of it's tax base in mineral severance taxes than Colorado ... that's how we get around the need of an personal income tax in Wyoming, compared to Colorado's 5% tax rate. Wyoming's legislature also operates under a "pay as you go" basis per the constitution, and we've been putting away a lot of money into the state's "rainy day fund" which helps bridge funding gaps when larger public projects come along and need to be paid for.

Since Green River is a recreational and tourist area for Wyoming, it gets hit with property valuations that are higher per property than a lot of the state ... somewhat like my Vail properties get higher per square foot valuations than say, a house in Littleton. But the mil levy in Green River is much lower than a comparable tourist area property in Colorado ... and that's the real basis for a comparison, not comparing your regular residence in Colorado tax bill to your relatives place in Wyoming.

Again, you display your total ignorance about Wyoming and "mountain" country, despite having relatives living here as a basis of your information ... Yes, there is the "expensive" side of Wyoming around Jackson and the Star Valley, which is way out of the OP's price range. But I can think of the Buffalo/Story/Sheridan area as being rather close in the mountains, or heading up to Dubois, or the Medicine Bow area NW of Wheatland (say, around Esterbrook), or the Medicine Bow area West of Laramie (Woods Landing, Foxpark, Centennial ... and running over to Saratoga), or the Black Hills area in NE Wyoming, or ... of possible interest to the OP, the Vedauwoo area between Cheyenne and Laramie, which would offer a place "in the mountains" and yet have accessibility to the job markets of those towns.

Please note that not one of these areas is the "rockies" ... well, OK, Dubois is on the Eastern side of that mountain range. But not the mountains in the central or NE area of Wyoming ....

And we haven't even looked at the wonderful mountainous areas down by Evanston .... which again are pretty nice places .....

RE: comparative cost of living .... Overall, the cost of living here in Wyoming on a not-too-remote ranch in Laramie county is staggering compared to my costs of living at my KenCaryl Ranch home, or my place just outside of Boulder County at Erie, Colorado. Ken Caryl was close to the Wads/Kipling corridor of shopping, entertainment, and businesses (when they developed that after I'd moved to KC Ranch). Due to the accessibility of shopping close by in Longmont, Boulder, Fort Collins, or Denver, and all the other businesses there ... Erie was also a very convenient location. Utilities were inexpensive in both locations, being on municipal water and local power/gas lines. And the climate was very mild compared to our weather patterns in SE Wyoming.
Roads were pretty well maintained, and I got by very well with an old MB turbodiesel for my transportation, although I did buy an Audi 4000CS Quattro for a "winter beater" after awhile in Erie for my commute to Vail. Shopping for everything from food to other major purchases was much less expensive in those Colorado locations.

Compare that to living on the ranch. Everything is a significant distance away. It's a 65 mile round-trip to the grocery store or anything else I'd buy in Cheyenne ... and accessed by some pretty nasty dirt roads for 20 odd miles of that trip. I had to buy an AWD car for my wife and for me to be able to get through on those roads with some degree of safety, and ... despite owning a 4x2 pickup F-250 Powerstroke that otherwise met my needs ... had to buy a 4x4 pickup Dodge 2500 Cummins for those hauling chores when the roads get nasty (4-6 months out of every year). I drive many miles more here for business and chores than I ever did in Colorado, and that means insurance, licensing, maintenance, and fuel costs are much higher than before.

Utilities? Our electricity cost is much higher, and because we're on a deep well water ... our monthly household electricity bill is around $150/month in the summer, and easily better than double that in the winter. Heat? we're on Propane, and it's not uncommon to see several $4-500 per month bills during the heating season. And we keep our house at 62 degrees in the winter with HWBB heat. That includes supplementing the propane heat with a wood cookstove and lots of firewood ... which comes in handy when the power is out and we still have some heat and can cook conveniently on the stove. In a typical winter, we burn about $1,000 worth of hardwood ... more heat per lb, better burning in the small firebox than the local area softwoods. It's easier to have the hardwood delivered (6 cords) than to do the labor and transportation and cutting and splitting of softwood from the forests to the West of us.

While we raise our own poultry, beef, pork, lamb, and a lot of our vegetables in our greenhouses and gardens ... it's not "less expensive" than shopping at the supermarket. But that's the price we're willing to pay for controlling the quality of our free range naturally raised food.

Overall, when I look through my tax records for the years and track my deductions and expenses ... it's not cheaper to live here in Wyoming than it was (or is now) in Colorado. For me, it's a level playing field comparison because I don't have any mortgages, so I'm looking at overall real world costs of living here and there. And I spend enough time still in Colorado to know what my current utilities and other expenses are there today ... as well as my costs when I stay at my houses in Vail and shop downvalley. Especially since I pay the utilities and water bills on some of my rental properties ... so I get a cross section of what other people are consuming and their real world costs today. I don't have to guess at what my relatives are spending .... Fact: I still do my major shopping purchases in Colorado because it's so much less expensive there than Wyoming. Even Sam's Club (and Costco, which we don't have) is less expensive .... but when I'm shopping for a piece of farm equipment, or a new(er) vehicle ... I head to Greeley or Ft Collins because they blow the doors off Wyoming prices, even with the cost of transport of my purchase. And that's not for lack of trying to get a deal at Wheatland, Cheyenne, Laramie, or a host of other ag oriented Wyoming towns ... they simply aren't competitive with the bigger dealers in Colorado, much as I'd like to do business with local folks.

[80skeys]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

And you've really got me laughing ... Colorado "foothills" aren't "mountains", even if they might look "big" to someone from Pennsylvania.

I consider the foothills part of the mountains if it's got similar terrain, pine trees, etc. I mean, when you're in that environment, you can't tell the difference.

Bottom line: their $300,000 budget won't buy them what they think they'd like in Colorado. Why mislead the OP into thinking it's possible when you know it isn't?

Agreed. It'll get them the land, but not the house.

[80skeys]

Originally Posted by wanneroo

I can't remember the numbers but I remember researching the weather in Spokane and Coeur d Alene and it wasn't any worse than most of Colorado.

Depends on where you're at. There's a few places here that are extremeley cold: the San Luis valley and the Gunnison/Crested Butte area.

But there's a lot of place in CO that are quite mild too.

[jazzlover]

Cosmic makes a good point about Bradford, PA. It is a cold spot in Pennsylvania (very pretty, too), but most of Pennsylvania is not that cold in winter.

As to winter in northern Idaho (and far western Montana), many of those areas are not as cold in winter as some of Colorado's interior valleys, however, a major difference is winter cloud cover. Colorado's interior valleys tend to be clear on most winter days and nights (which also allows the warmth to easily radiate away at night); northern Idaho and western Montana can have significant cloud cover on many winter days.

Finally, having lived in both Colorado and Wyoming, I would have to agree with sunsprit for the most part concerning living cost comparisons between the two states. Both have the problem that the desirable areas have real estate costs that (so far) are generally higher than local incomes can support.

People without secure jobs in the area and substantial savings just plain should not be considering relocating to places where the living costs are still out of phase with what local incomes can support--and that means most places in the Rocky Mountain West. Again, the main thing that has propped up much of the economy in Colorado has been real estate speculation and construction--and those industries are lying in a pool of blood, severely if not mortally wounded right now. As for Wyoming, it lives and dies on the minerals industry (oil, gas, coal, and trona, for the most part) and that industry is hurting now, too.

I see two types of potential re-locators posting these days. First, are the "dreamer" types who think they can move to what they perceive as their new "paradise" with scant financial resources, no job, and little true knowledge about where they are relocating--and then just hope that everything will be alright. Second, are the folks who believe that Colorado (or wherever) just has to be better than whatever place they are living in now. In some cases that may be true, but those people are no likelier to succeed in Colorado than the "dreamers" are in this current environment, unless they also have the career and financial resources to make the transition. From what I can glean from most of these posts, most people don't.