Why the "split" between "old" and "new" Coloradans . . . (Denver: housing)

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by denverian

So someone else above refers to "fancy pants new urbanists", "late drinkers", etc. I live in Stapleton, a new urbanist community and I love it. I strongly support infill projects (which helps keep the metro Denver footprint from spreading), dense projects that don't take up too much land, and being near public transportation and the core of the city. Are you a supporter of denser building within cities rather than eating up farmland?

Yes, I am. I am also in favor of "recreating" walkable small towns with viable downtown business districts--connected to larger cities by viable mass transit. While I actually don't share the "the whole world is going to end, like totally" philosophy that some doomsday prophets like to profess, I really don't think our current sprawled suburban lifestyle has any long-term future. I think of current suburbia not only as a harmful "investment" bubble in non-productive assets (which it is), but a gross waste of limited physical resources which we no longer have the luxury of wantonly squandering. I may be labeled many things by my detractors on this forum, but I label myself first, last, and always as a strident conservationist. Call it Puritanical, but I sit solidly in the school of "waste not, want not." Coloradans, by in large (and not unlike most Americans), by the very way we occupy the landscape in this state, have shown by our actions that we have absolutely renounced that living philosophy. Civilizations that go down that wasteful path usually don't survive long and I don't think we are any exception.

We can either choose to live in less wasteful ways, including a turn back toward more sustainable urban/small town arrangements, or we will have grossly more austere living arrangements jammed down our throats by circumstances. Given the tenor of many posters on this forum as any indication of general sentiment, I think we are much more likely to see the latter than the former. That's too bad.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Yes, I am. I am also in favor of "recreating" walkable small towns with viable downtown business districts--connected to larger cities by viable mass transit. While I actually don't share the "the whole world is going to end, like totally" philosophy that some doomsday prophets like to profess, I really don't think our current sprawled suburban lifestyle has any long-term future. I think of current suburbia not only as a harmful "investment" bubble in non-productive assets (which it is), but a gross waste of limited physical resources which we no longer have the luxury of wantonly squandering. I may be labeled many things by my detractors on this forum, but I label myself first, last, and always as a strident conservationist. Call it Puritanical, but I sit solidly in the school of "waste not, want not." Coloradans, by in large (and not unlike most Americans), by the very way we occupy the landscape in this state, have shown by our actions that we have absolutely renounced that living philosophy. Civilizations that go down that wasteful path usually don't survive long and I don't think we are any exception.

We can either choose to live in less wasteful ways, including a turn back toward more sustainable urban/small town arrangements, or we will have grossly more austere living arrangements jammed down our throats by circumstances. Given the tenor of many posters on this forum as any indication of general sentiment, I think we are much more likely to see the latter than the former. That's too bad.

OK, much like European towns. I lived in a small German town maybe 10 miles outside a larger city. The little town was very walkable, dense, and you could easily take a bus into the city. Also they had nice paved paths through the forest and fields so if you could bike/walk/run to the next town, enjoy nature, and get exercise. I loved that setup. I'd like to see more of that here.

[my_2_cents]

Here's one that goes way back. SE Denver in the 60s... anybody remember White Sands? It turned into condos in the 70s.

[Idunn]

Haven't been there yet, but always reminded when seeing pictures of Europe, and particularly places such as the Swiss Alps, how apparently well ordered it is. In many respects absolutely lovely.

On the other hand some of these picturesque villages are precisely that way because they are densely populated in the core. Not a lot of breathing room for someone wanting a wide open 'back 40.' Suppose it is technically possible, but every multi-family dwelling I've ever experienced, condo, apartment, townhouse, you name it, has always proved an unwelcome reminder of those living in close proximity (ie: Noise!).

If paying $8 per gallon of petrol, as in places there, natural that most cars would be smaller and more efficient and used primarily on shorter urban commutes.

But possible that so much of Europe so well ordered because they had some time to sort it out, and we in the Wild West only slowly catching up?

[my_2_cents]

Originally Posted by Idunn

Haven't been there yet, but always reminded when seeing pictures of Europe, and particularly places such as the Swiss Alps, how apparently well ordered it is. In many respects absolutely lovely.

On the other hand some of these picturesque villages are precisely that way because they are densely populated in the core. Not a lot of breathing room for someone wanting a wide open 'back 40.' Suppose it is technically possible, but every multi-family dwelling I've ever experienced, condo, apartment, townhouse, you name it, has always proved an unwelcome reminder of those living in close proximity (ie: Noise!).

If paying $8 per gallon of petrol, as in places there, natural that most cars would be smaller and more efficient and used primarily on shorter urban commutes.

But possible that so much of Europe so well ordered because they had some time to sort it out, and we in the Wild West only slowly catching up?

Brick walls between the units. I live in Boston in a two-family house that's not unlike many houses I visited in Europe. You get used to it. Europe is well ordered because they don't freak at the thought of government intervention. Americans want to be king of their own castle, etc. and need lots of space. Also, we want convenience now and that's the problem. Ever live in NY or Boston other eastern city? Walking to the grocery store and taking the train everywhere is much harder than life in the west! You have to really dress for the weather and they walk so much more in Boston than in western cities! A lot of people don't own cars!

While I miss the west, I do like Boston where I have a much smaller carbon footprint - plus I have gone to Paris for the weekend on occasion. The east is fun.

[jazzlover]

The Western US actually started out much like the East did before it. Walkable small towns connected by public transportation--first "stage" lines and wagon roads and later railroads. The larger western cities were similarly compact--with trolley systems built for public transit in many of them at the same time they were being built in Eastern and Midwestern cities.

Unfortunately, the large-scale growth that has occurred in the West did so for the most part after the advent of the automobile. Thus, it developed in large extent on the automobile-centric suburban sprawl model. Of course, most of the latter day growth in the rest of the US has developed along that model, as well. Since most modern middle class and upper class Americans grew up in that environment, they have no concept of living any other way, nor can they bring themselves to see how harmful and unsustainable it is.

In Europe, high fuel prices discouraged that kind of sprawling development model from the start. In addition, Europe is densely populated, with a relative scarcity of good farmland. Carving up agricultural land into suburban sprawl has long been seen there as both economically foolhardy and as a threat to national security and sovereignty. Finally, European countries have not placed the automobile on a sacred pedestal when it comes to adequate funding of transportation infrastructure. Unlike the US, most European countries make substantial public investments in passenger rail, as well as roads. In the US, public funding of transportation virtually ignores passenger rail while lavishing massive direct and indirect subsidies on highways.

Just like cancer cures smoking, diminishing petroleum reserves and increasingly unaffordable infrastructure maintenance costs will kill off the US's massive addiction to the automobile, and to a large chunk of the sprawling suburbia it enables. The only real question is "How soon?" My answer is probably sooner than most people think, and also sooner than most people are ready for.

[RemoteMountainLiving]

Originally Posted by treyjay

I sometimes find it laughable to hear some people talk about how sophisticated Colorado is. I remember when Krispy Kreme donuts came to the state; people went gaga! (And that was just a few years ago!) That said, it's been a nice place for us to live these past 27 years.

I never could figure out why so many people thought those crappy donuts were somethin'.[/quote]

Most of the people that went "ga-ga" over those terrible donuts were not natives or not old natives anyway. I am a 3rd generation native and remember Aspen when the skiers were mostly locals. Glenwood Springs, Carbondale and Basalt.
Colorado even had yellow and black plates. I am not sure what year but I remember seeing them.
Old natives are also known as having absolutely no accent.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by RemoteMountainLiving

I never could figure out why so many people thought those crappy donuts were somethin'.

Most of the people that went "ga-ga" over those terrible donuts were not natives or not old natives anyway. I am a 3rd generation native and remember Aspen when the skiers were mostly locals. Glenwood Springs, Carbondale and Basalt.
Colorado even had yellow and black plates. I am not sure what year but I remember seeing them.
Old natives are also known as having absolutely no accent.

Oh, for Pete's sake! The whole state went nuts! I thought it was silly myself. That post could have been written by me. In fact, I think it was written by me and somehow got attributed to this treyjay, who was quoting me. Anyway, I don't know how you know the ones who went crazy were non-natives. Re: the accent thing, this has been discussed on many other threads. Everyone has an accent! Some people find the Colorado accent kind of drawly.

[ryanek9freak]

i know what you mean. My father has that accent. When he comes to Ohio to visit, nobody can place where he's from

[formercalifornian]

Originally Posted by ryanek9freak

i know what you mean. My father has that accent. When he comes to Ohio to visit, nobody can place where he's from

Funny. I grew up in southwestern Ohio, which has one of the flattest dialects in the country. Nobody can place me either. Some people think we Ohioans talk through our noses, but that's only because in "Sinus Valley", we were always congested.