Why the "split" between "old" and "new" Coloradans . . . (Denver: real estate, houses)

[Rawlings]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

My daughter has been told she has a slight "southern" accent. She is a native and her father and I are from Nebraska and Pennsylvania, so she didn't get it from us. She is also 23 yrs old, so I guess fits the definition of "Coloradans today".

.

It's funny you say that. I'm also 23, a native, and I had a lot of people from out of state at CU--where I went to school--tell me that I have a twangy accent. You can sort of tell who is and who is not from Colorado by how they talk. It's not strong, but it is certainly nearer to Texas than Colorado. I think that a while ago the twang was the norm. But as lots of folks started moving here, assimilating into the larger population, the accent became much more vanilla. Now that more and more natives are growing up and the incoming traffic has abated, I think you're gonna see the twang pop up more and more.

I really don't know how to account for the accent. We aren't a southern state. Maybe we're midwestern--but the accent sure wouldn't show it. I suppose it could be a western thing but I don't think Utahans or Idahoans have much of an accent.

[Katiana]

From Rawlings:

I suppose it could be a western thing but I don't think Utahans or Idahoans have much of an accent.

When I was a college-age kid living in Maryland, we had some neighbors from Idaho/Utah. We thought they had very twangy, southerny accents. Now, having lived in the west these 27 years, I don't hear the twang any more, even in my daughter.

[canyontiger2]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

A nice day to you, too, canyontiger! Always blame the victim. (I don't really consider myself a 'victim', but I see a lot of that on these forums.)

As I said. Point taken.

[jazzlover]

vegaslover,

I chuckle a little bit about your post comparing Wyoming and Colorado. Since I've lived in both, I think I can comment on both. First, you are right--a lot of Wyoming today is the way Colorado used to be, but that is an oversimplication. Much of Colorado's geographical area, but not many of its people today, have a lot of commonality with Wyoming. That part of Colorado is still mining coal, drilling for oil and natural gas, and ranching and farming. You're right, those are the major industries in Wyoming. Yes, that is the part of both states that I embrace. What the Front Range suburbanites can't get their arms around is that much of the Front Range economy is still tied to those industries (that seem so "passe" to you), and the Front Range economy always will be. When they are healthy, the Front Range economy is healthy; when they are not, it won't be.

Many people think that the "high-tech" economy will be the "future" in an of itself. That, bluntly, is nonsense. I happen to work in a technology-related field, but I understand that technology, with all that embodies, is just a tool to allow other industries to flourish. If those other industries falter, high-tech won't be far behind. The Colorado economy and the well-being of its residents is still centered around its land and resources, and they are both being squandered these days with little thought to the future--and not just by the miners and drillers, but by the recreationists and the sprawling suburbanites.

You may not like to hear this, vegaspilgrim, but young people "coming of age" today have grown up in an era of material excess, unparalleled comsumption of resources, abundant leisure time, and general "soft" living enjoyed by no previous generation. It has gone on long enough that many of you, and even many of your parents (my generation), think of it as a birthright. Sadly, people my age, who have also largely bought into this fantasy, are bequeathing you a nation that is going to be something much different for you. We have used up the cheap resources, the water, the topsoil, the prime land in a decades-long fit of waste that should cause all of us to hang our heads in shame. You will be a member of the generation that has to try to survive the mess that we have created; and you will be the generation--just like the generation who came of age in the Great Depression--who will have to change their expectations and lifestyles in ways that you almost certainly can not imagine. It is not how you grew up, not what you have been educated in how to endure, not what you psychologically or sociologically have prepared yourself for--and, most absolutely, not what you have been told to expect. You probably have never heard the saying that, "To those that much is given, much is expected." Nothing in your life so far has prepared you for what lies ahead. If consumption and wealth are the watchwords of today, conservation and survival will be the watchwords of tomorrow.

Almost everything that you talked about in your post of being so much better in the "new Colorado" is centered on one thing: consumption. I didn't see mention of enjoying a beautiful sunset, or the smell of sage after a rain, or listening to the music of meadowlarks, or working with your friends and neighbors out on the land, or having the best hamburger in your life in a cattle sale yard with real ranchers who have manure on their boots, or stopping on a deserted highway on a cold winter's night and having a herd of 200 elk gather around your car because the car was warm, or driving a hundred miles without seeing another vehicle and being OK with that, or not having a lot of money or "things" but being supremely thankful for what you do have, or living in a landscape that no amount of development, construction, ski slopes, or money could ever "improve."

Quite simply, the older generations have forgotten what's truly important, and nearly all of the younger generation never knew. I pity you in that what I have enjoyed you can not or will not have the opportunity to experience. I realize every day how truly blessed I have been to grow up in the era in which I did.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

So I don't dispute your point, jazzlover, that things have changed.

But so what? There is still a place where you can live that horse-riding, cattle-punching, hard-drinking, wild western life-- it's called Wyoming (and if I'm not mistaken you're living there now). Wyoming will always be your quintessential old-west kind of place. Great for tourism, but not the kind of place a young person can go to and have real opportunities to have a career. Sure, right now they might be having a temporary mineral-extraction boom-- that doesn't mean anything. The future of this country is with the young generation, people like me, who are still in college or are early in their careers. Denver happens to be a good place for college educated, urban-minded young people to live and find jobs, because of the opportunities that your maligned "New Colorado" has created. This is a global economy-- you either compete for the best talent, the best resources, or you relegate yourself to a quaint backwater community.

Maybe what Colorado means to me is different than what it means to you, but I am very proud to have grown up there, and I plan on moving back after I graduate from college next year. For me, memories of my hometown include going to concerts at the Pepsi center, Elitches, DIA (I remember when it was built, I was ten years old, they had an air show at the site), seeing the Rockies at Coors Field, rooting for the Broncos every Sunday with my family, going skiing at Loveland and Mary Jane, having a picnic on Mt Evans, taking family road trips throughout Colorado and the southwest, cruisin' around Downtown Denver after I first got my license, going K-12 in the Cherry Creek School district, hanging out in Boulder at the Pearl Street Mall... the list goes on and on. Another thing about the new Colorado that blows away the old Colorado is food. As my dad tells me, back in the 1970's going out to eat meant either Village Inn, Furr's or the White Spot (I have no clue what that is). Today there is more diversity, and better food than ever before. Even the chain restaurants are better than ever before. A whole slew of nationally successful fast-casual chain restaurants all started in Colorado.

You can have Wyoming all for yourself, jazzlover! I look forward to coming back home soon!

Vegas!! You are young. I see myself in you. I felt the same way as you and said the same kind of thing, did the exact same things as you in Denver. Live it up, kiddo. Follow that dream and get that big salary! But realize a couple of things. Your dad was a cheapskate. He ate at Village Inn. Well, I guess Village Inn isn't too bad. The White Spot may not be too bad either. I just didn't feel like it was right to go to a place called "The White Spot" on East Colfax. I felt like it was going to turn into "The Red Spot". But your dad should have been talking about places like Simms Landing, the Briarwood, North Woods Inn, The Buck Snort...surely some of these places were around back then. The Fort, The Broker, Traildust (34 oz Porterhouse and maybe some Rocky Mountain Oysters??), Tons of other Moms and Pops throughout the metro area.

Vegas, I've got news for you; Walmarts sux. Del Taco sux. Franchise places bite. Furrburgers...is not good.

Tell me more about this global economy? Go spend some time out in border-town Mexico. Go count the factories that are going up now. Go look at the thousands of kids spilling out of them at 4:00 to change shifts with the next 4000 kids being bused in from God knows where as they run 3 shifts every 24 hours of every day (except Sunday, these are God-fearing Catholics mind you!) to build stuff that we Americans were building 15 years ago for 1/10th the money. And Mexico is medium scale industry. The BIG stuff is happening in China, Taiwan, Korea, etc.

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

But so what? There is still a place where you can live that horse-riding, cattle-punching, hard-drinking, wild western life-- it's called Wyoming (and if I'm not mistaken you're living there now). Wyoming will always be your quintessential old-west kind of place. Great for tourism, but not the kind of place a young person can go to and have real opportunities to have a career. Sure, right now they might be having a temporary mineral-extraction boom-- that doesn't mean anything. The future of this country is with the young generation, people like me, who are still in college or are early in their careers. Denver happens to be a good place for college educated, urban-minded young people to live and find jobs, because of the opportunities that your maligned "New Colorado" has created. This is a global economy-- you either compete for the best talent, the best resources, or you relegate yourself to a quaint backwater community.

You know, if you can pay 3+/gallon without cringing, good for you. About the last thing I'd be doing is dogging the energy-resource rich lands of this over-populated over-developed country. Change is good. The time of the farmer is dead already. We won't have enough resources to go around for a family to "choose" to run a farm. It's all going global. It's all going big business. You know, that's the next thing we need to import (if we aren't already importing way too much to a growing degree); food. Where do you thing that the best produce from the San Joaquin Valley? It ain't to anywhere in the good ole US. Except for maybe somewhere in Manhattan.

Jazzlover and myself didn't have to, and hopefully still doesn't have to pay for water. How about your oxygen-bars? Go get tattooed up and pierce your lips shut and dry the wet behind your ears before you go knockin Wyoming. Wyoming is where true Coloradoans go when they die. Or to live, if they are smart.

[COflower]

Eh, native Coloradoan here but apparently I am still too young to remember much of that but for the license plates and remembering travels up to Denver where Arvada contained a lot of open space lots. (We had friends up there and used to go to a lot of swim meets in Jeffco.)

I also remember when the ski towns like Breck and such were very small and quaint. I also remember a lot more snow back in those days.

I am turning 39 this summer.

[vegaspilgrim]

I'm going to respond to a couple of you here in one post:

Originally Posted by Rawlings

Second, I have never heard Denver described as 'urban minded' before. It is full of talented, education, young people--I'll give you that--but it is largely suburbanized. In fact, because of that I've heard plenty of people slam the town for being a suburban backwater. I think it comes to this: if you're one of those new urbanists whose into a culturally dynamic, high-flying, 'inclusive,' urban places--then Denver's just not for you. Denver's a place where you can get a good job, find a good church and safe neighborhood, and raise your family. I don't think it's as hip as you think it is--maybe you've been in Vegas for too long. Just think of San Francisco, New York, Boston, DC, Chicago, or LA. Then think of Denver.

I actually live in Phoenix right now (I guess my user name is somewhat of a misnomer-- I take an annual "pilgrimage" to Las Vegas, but I don't actually live there), a city that has more in common with Denver than you might at first think. One thing I've learned since living here is there's no difference between "urban" and "suburban." There are older and newer areas, higher and lesser densities, different social classes in different areas, but the whole metropolitan area is urban. Perhaps "metropolitan minded" is a better term for what I meant. And yeah, I'd agree, I'd rather live in Denver than either of those cities. If you check out the Phoenix forum, there are tons of people here that would love to move to Denver. One thing that makes Denver great is that is has a lot of big city amenities PLUS a variety of outdoor recreation right in the metro area itself (cherry creek state park, etc) and just a short drive from it (the mountains), and relatively affordable housing, good schools, etc.

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Many people think that the "high-tech" economy will be the "future" in an of itself. That, bluntly, is nonsense. I happen to work in a technology-related field, but I understand that technology, with all that embodies, is just a tool to allow other industries to flourish. If those other industries falter, high-tech won't be far behind. The Colorado economy and the well-being of its residents is still centered around its land and resources, and they are both being squandered these days with little thought to the future--and not just by the miners and drillers, but by the recreationists and the sprawling suburbanites.

Quite simply, the older generations have forgotten what's truly important, and nearly all of the younger generation never knew. I pity you in that what I have enjoyed you can not or will not have the opportunity to experience. I realize every day how truly blessed I have been to grow up in the era in which I did.

Only time will tell if your predictions will hold out or not. The west has always been about booms and busts. I don't exactly see how cattle ranching in arid areas or the mineral extraction industry is exactly environmentally sensitive or sustainable either. I don't know the exact percentage, but the majority of water in CO is used for agricultural, not municipal purposes. Well, I guess it's a shame I had to be born in the 80's. All I hear from you "old timers" is nothing but doom and gloom. Isn't there one positive thing you can say about the state?

Originally Posted by McGowdog

You know, if you can pay 3+/gallon without cringing, good for you. About the last thing I'd be doing is dogging the energy-resource rich lands of this over-populated over-developed country.

I have no idea what kind of lifestyle you or Jazzlover live, so I'm not making any presumptions about you in particular. But from what I've seen, people that live on these McRanches on several acres with a horse or two and their own drilled well in these "exurban" areas (eastern Douglas county, east of Parker and Elbert county are what come to mind) are the biggest suburbanite resource hogs of all. They have a little parcel of their own land, think they're living a rural lifestyle, vote ultra-conservative, but at the same time, conveniently drive back in to the metro area whenever they need something... like going to the grocery store... or a major hub airport... or even their daily job. They drive gas guzzling giant SUVs and pickup drucks-- wow, they are real cowboys! When you live in a metropolitan area, especially if you can find a more centrally located area, such as a neighborhood close to the new light rail line, you can have all the daily conveniences you need within a short 1-2 mile drive, and if you're lucky even commute to work without having to drive at all! If you live in a metro area, you can get around driving smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles. Plus you have emergency services like hospitals close by. Living in a far out rural area would be just fine if it was like the 19th century, where you rarely leave your property.

Jazzlover and myself didn't have to, and hopefully still doesn't have to pay for water. How about your oxygen-bars? Go get tattooed up and pierce your lips shut and dry the wet behind your ears before you go knockin Wyoming. Wyoming is where true Coloradoans go when they die. Or to live, if they are smart.

Man you sure make a lot of assumptions! Oxygen bars? tattoos? You seem to know more about that stuff than I do!

The way I see it, Wyoming is to Colorado what Canada is to the US. A great place to live, especially if you're from there, more friendly, laid back, fun to visit, but is simply not a major player. I know a bunch of people from the Cheyenne and Laramie areas, both in Denver and Phoenix. Key word is "from." They all have good things to say about growing up there, but there simply aren't enough job opportunities there like what you get in big cities. But hey, if you're retired or have managed to carve out a niche there, then good for you! Question though-- where would YOU want to live if you were my age?

[jazzlover]

Question though-- where would YOU want to live if you were my age?[/quote]

Where did I live when I was your age? I chose to live in a couple of different small towns in western Colorado. I lived in a modest house and didn't get rich. I lived through the bust in the '80's when a lot of people had to leave. I wouldn't do it any differently had I the chance to do it again.

You want to hear something positive? I think that after this funny-money economy we have collapses under its own weight, a lot of Americans, includinng a lot of Coloradans, are going to rediscover a way of life and some values that are lost today: the value of community, and neighbors helping neighbors; that "stuff" alone is not what is most important to have to be happy; that you don't have to live in 4,000 square foot house to have a "decent" life; that people who don't have a whole lot, but who have enough to eat can actually be happy; that places and regions (like Colorado) can have their own character and not be media-homogenized blobs; that small businesses employing local people will be more important than big box mega chains; that trains will take the place of trucks and automobiles for primary transportation; that we can have freedom and safety, and not have to think about sacrificing one for the other; that people will actually act to leave the land in better shape than they found it, not try to develop it, ravage it, and destroy it just for their own pleasure and gain; and--most of all--that we, both as individuals and as a country, will be able to lead a sustainable life, not dependent on the total exhaustion of our financial and natural resources within a generation or so.

Before someone accuses me of being a rabid leftist environmentalist, I'm not. I am a relatively conservative person who happens to strongly believe that part of "conservative" is "conservation." One of our greatest Presidents, Theodore Roosevelt (a Republican) was one of the earliest champions of conservation. Today's conservatives (and liberals) should take time to read his writings on conservation. He was a century ahead of his time. We should heed his words and warnings. He had it figured out.

I posted this in an earlier thread. Teddy Roosevelt said this a century ago. We should heed his words:

"We of an older generation can get along with what we have, though with growing hardship; but in your full manhood and womanhood you will want what nature once so bountifully supplied and man so thoughtlessly destroyed; and because of that want you will reproach us, not for what we have used, but for what we have wasted...So any nation which in its youth lives only for the day, reaps without sowing, and consumes without husbanding, must expect the penalty of the prodigal whose labor could with difficulty find him the bare means of life."
--"Arbor Day - A Message to the School-Children of the United States" April 15, 1907

[treyjay]

I sometimes find it laughable to hear some people talk about how sophisticated Colorado is. I remember when Krispy Kreme donuts came to the state; people went gaga! (And that was just a few years ago!) That said, it's been a nice place for us to live these past 27 years.[/quote]

I never could figure out why so many people thought those crappy donuts were somethin'.

[Rawlings]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

I'm going to respond to a couple of you here in one post:



I have no idea what kind of lifestyle you or Jazzlover live, so I'm not making any presumptions about you in particular. But from what I've seen, people that live on these McRanches on several acres with a horse or two and their own drilled well in these "exurban" areas (eastern Douglas county, east of Parker and Elbert county are what come to mind) are the biggest suburbanite resource hogs of all. They have a little parcel of their own land, think they're living a rural lifestyle, vote ultra-conservative, but at the same time, conveniently drive back in to the metro area whenever they need something... like going to the grocery store... or a major hub airport... or even their daily job. They drive gas guzzling giant SUVs and pickup drucks-- wow, they are real cowboys! When you live in a metropolitan area, especially if you can find a more centrally located area, such as a neighborhood close to the new light rail line, you can have all the daily conveniences you need within a short 1-2 mile drive, and if you're lucky even commute to work without having to drive at all! If you live in a metro area, you can get around driving smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles. Plus you have emergency services like hospitals close by. Living in a far out rural area would be just fine if it was like the 19th century, where you rarely leave your property.

Um, maybe you've been away for too long--but most suburban folks drive giant SUVs and pickup trucks, vote conservative, have land and a big house, etc. Public transit use in Denver, last time I checked, was about 48th of all metropolitan areas (Denver is 18th in size). So these myopic vision you have of all kinds of fancy-pants,train-taking liberals is probably more what you hope for Denver than reality.

In the suburbs we may not all be cowhearding roughriders, but we sure as hell aren't latte-sipping tofu-eaters. Once I heard an executive with a car company say that Colorado is 'truck country USA.' If you want itty-bitty European cars driven by skinny guys in black turtle-necks and goatees you may enjoy Boulder--but Metro Denver? Maybe not.

And, to answer your question--what city would a person your age like to live in--I am your age and I agree with you--it's Denver! But I'm also a conservative Christian about to get married. I'm heading straight for the 'burbs. You sound quite a bit different than me and it makes me wonder if a place like Vegas, LA, Seattle, or Boston wouldn't be more your style. Most of my college pals (I went to CU) left the state because they found Denver so UNsophisticated and too family-oriented. I would hate to be Boston or Seattle--I love Denver's family-friendly atmosphere.

Finally, about suburban vs. urban--

Suburban is not urban. Have you read Joel Kotkin's book, The City? He details how the efforts to create a 'creative class' based upon young urban singles, gays, etc. actually creates a feudal system of fancy pants elites and the poor folks who serve them. That's the ethos of most urban areas--while the suburbs are built around families and the middle class. People in suburban areas are categorically different than those in urban areas.