Why the "split" between "old" and "new" Coloradans . . . (Home Depot, high school)

[Charles]

Originally Posted by ryanek9freak

He always tells me to shut up and mind my own business.

He knows something: The customer is always right.

[rgb123]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Space does not necessarily equal adequate resources--especially water. That is one thing that so many newcomers don't "get." Everyone from east of the Mississippi River should read Cadillac Desert before they head west--then they might understand that, as empty as the West looks, it may already be overpopulated.

That may be the big split between old Coloradans and new ones. The old ones "get it" because they have lived with the region's realities and limitations for a long time--the newbies haven't.

I think that is a pretty broad overgeneralization, while that may be true to some extent, I'd say most of us have basic education and understand that. I work in water resources and have greater job opportunites in the west. I guess I am just supposed to stay home. And....you would be wrong to assume that water resources east of the mississippi river are not being depleted as well, by overuse. It is a problem everywhere and one that must be dealt with. I'd say they are actually just more aware of it in the west at this time....unless you happened to live in the southeast this summer.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by rgb123

I think that is a pretty broad overgeneralization, while that may be true to some extent, I'd say most of us have basic education and understand that. I work in water resources and have greater job opportunites in the west. I guess I am just supposed to stay home. And....you would be wrong to assume that water resources east of the mississippi river are not being depleted as well, by overuse. It is a problem everywhere and one that must be dealt with. I'd say they are actually just more aware of it in the west at this time....unless you happened to live in the southeast this summer.

Well, you sort of "tipped your hand." You work in water resources, so I'm sure you have some understanding of the issues. That's good. The problem is that you are probably one out of a thousand from "back East" that has understanding of Western water issues. And, I will also grant that there are plenty of Westerners--mostly urbanites--who are equally clueless about the West's precarious water situation.

The really interesting thing that is happening these days: For a long time, anyone that set forth the idea that water problems were "going critical" in the West was labeled as some sort of enviro nut. Now, while many water experts still publicly state that the problems are solvable and growth can continue unabated, privately they are saying things much different. They know how ominous the situation is, and the ones who are working for the cities, etc. that want the water are now posturing for the final game of "last man standing" to acquire those resources that continued growth and waste will make inevitable.

[WestCoDude]

Old Colorado is way different from New Colorado.

New Colorado is more materialistic, individualistic, young, transient (people come and go), rude, fractured (latino/white, newcomer/native, etc).

Old Colorado, in a sense, always embodied all of those traits. But they have now manifested themselves in especially obnoxious, contemporary ways. And I don't blame Californians, either. I'm not sure there was anything Colorado could do to stem the tide, to stop the changes. But...Colorado is fast becoming a not-so-appealing place to live. It's becoming California with no ocean. And...yuck....no thanks.

[CosmicWizard]

Only a fool would deny that Colorado and many other states are very likely to experience increasingly greater pressure concerning water resources. What I'm having difficulty with is the sense of entitlement that I perceive from some natives and/or long term residents of theses water challenged states. It seems that IF water was the real issue, the natives and the old timers would gladly move away to lessen the strain on the water resources and make more room for the newcomers. But that doesn't appear to be happening very much. Rather it's more like, since I'm already here, I'm more entitled to be here than the people wanting to move here....or...Maintaining the status quo of my lifestyle is more important than the lifestyle you aspire to. So please stop hiding behind the limited resource issue and admit that you are out to protect your own selfish interests. IMO, there's nothing wrong with looking out for #1, but please be up front about it and let go of the entitlement attitude. Accept the fact that you have no more right to live in these states than someone currently living in New York City or LA.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by NewAgeRedneck

Only a fool would deny that Colorado and many other states are very likely to experience increasingly greater pressure concerning water resources. What I'm having difficulty with is the sense of entitlement that I perceive from some natives and/or long term residents of theses water challenged states. It seems that IF water was the real issue, the natives and the old timers would gladly move away to lessen the strain on the water resources and make more room for the newcomers. But that doesn't appear to be happening very much. Rather it's more like, since I'm already here, I'm more entitled to be here than the people wanting to move here....or...Maintaining the status quo of my lifestyle is more important than the lifestyle you aspire to. So please stop hiding behind the limited resource issue and admit that you are out to protect your own selfish interests. IMO, there's nothing wrong with looking out for #1, but please be up front about it and let go of the entitlement attitude. Accept the fact that you have no more right to live in these states than someone currently living in New York City or LA.

You miss the point. If the demands on the region's resources grow to the point that the population can't be supported, then EVERYBODY loses. It will turn into an ugly no-holds-barred battle over insufficient resources--survival of the fittest. That may be perceived by some as the natural Darwinian solution to the problem, but it's not much of a way to run a civilized society.

By the way, there are one hell of a lot of long-time Colorado residents who have already had to significantly change their lifestyle--often for the worse--because of out-of-control growth. Most long-time Coloradans have made significant material, professional, or personal sacrifices to live in one of the most beautiful places on earth. I think most of them, me included, have done that gladly to enjoy that privilege. But having made those sacrifices--and now to be expected to lose many of the amenities of the state in which we sacrificed to live in to the ravages of growth just doesn't seem quite fair.

Maybe when the people who just moved to Colorado manage to live here for, say, 30 or 40 years--and see the character of the Colorado THEY moved to being eroded before their eyes--maybe then they'll figure out what I'm talking about.

[rgb123]

Originally Posted by NewAgeRedneck

Only a fool would deny that Colorado and many other states are very likely to experience increasingly greater pressure concerning water resources. What I'm having difficulty with is the sense of entitlement that I perceive from some natives and/or long term residents of theses water challenged states. It seems that IF water was the real issue, the natives and the old timers would gladly move away to lessen the strain on the water resources and make more room for the newcomers. But that doesn't appear to be happening very much. Rather it's more like, since I'm already here, I'm more entitled to be here than the people wanting to move here....or...Maintaining the status quo of my lifestyle is more important than the lifestyle you aspire to. So please stop hiding behind the limited resource issue and admit that you are out to protect your own selfish interests. IMO, there's nothing wrong with looking out for #1, but please be up front about it and let go of the entitlement attitude. Accept the fact that you have no more right to live in these states than someone currently living in New York City or LA.

Well....and if you really wanted to ...dwell on this topic. You could also point out that a lot of the natives....who are really just people whose parents and grandparents were pioneers or whatever (newcomers themselves not so long ago) a lot of them were in search of gold or whatever other riches they could find out west. For the most part, they were very PRO plundering of natural resources for their own benefit.

Now, at least in general people are more educated about the enviornment and a lot of people, like me, work in fields that are pro-enviornment or pro-urban planning (as opposed to just unrestricted growth and plundering of resources).

Unfortunatley though, a lot of people still (me included if need be) will make decisions based on economics, and in a lot of cases that is not aligned with what is good for the enviornment or state or whatever. But I dont really think its the people who are moving's fault. They are doing what people have done forever....they are looking for their opportunity just as the native's parents and grandparents did.

And many people would not move if their home was still the way THEY remembered or wanted it to be as well....their home has changed too much for them and they can't even live there anymore.

[Bagz]

I am a native and my kids would be, but I was serving when they were born. When I was younger it was the Texans, not the Californians or illigals that we complained about, but we still complained - at least that hasn't changed. Neither has this - the people who complain the most benefit the most, they just dont realize it. The locals in the ski resorts all have top of the line schools and recreation centers. And the "Natives" who were not foolish with their equity can retire and live nicely on the appreciation of their houses - just as so many Californians have done. I say let em in and I will gladly smile as they plop down $100 for a lift ticket while I use my buddy pass. I say let them pay $30,000 for a water tap and my retirement plan grows. This native says "WELCOME" - at least in public.

[CosmicWizard]

Jazzlover wrote:

You miss the point. If the demands on the region's resources grow to the point that the population can't be supported, then EVERYBODY loses. It will turn into an ugly no-holds-barred battle over insufficient resources--survival of the fittest. That may be perceived by some as the natural Darwinian solution to the problem, but it's not much of a way to run a civilized society.

IF those who are living here now seriously cared about preventing the region's resources from growing to the point that the population can't be supported as much as or more as preserving their lifestyle, they would be more than willing to move out of the region to lessen the demand placed upon the regions resources. Instead of seriously considering that option, there is far more emphasis placed upon discouraging newcomers from moving in to the area. Without a sincere willingness to move out of the area to lessen the demand upon resources, the issue of preserving resources, is really just lip service.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by NewAgeRedneck

Jazzlover wrote:

You miss the point. If the demands on the region's resources grow to the point that the population can't be supported, then EVERYBODY loses. It will turn into an ugly no-holds-barred battle over insufficient resources--survival of the fittest. That may be perceived by some as the natural Darwinian solution to the problem, but it's not much of a way to run a civilized society.

IF those who are living here now seriously cared about preventing the region's resources from growing to the point that the population can't be supported as much as or more as preserving their lifestyle, they would be more than willing to move out of the region to lessen the demand placed upon the regions resources. Instead of seriously considering that option, there is far more emphasis placed upon discouraging newcomers from moving in to the area. Without a sincere willingness to move out of the area to lessen the demand upon resources, the issue of preserving resources, is really just lip service.

Normally, I find your posts quite insightful, but I'm going to call you out on this one. I've invested over a half-century of my life in Colorado--paid taxes here, worked here, served the communities here, held public office here, done volunteer work here--done all of that--for DECADES. I've also worked to minimize my personal impact on the water and other resources in this state. I also don't have any children, so whatever impact I'm having on Colorado stops with me when I die. So, I do get insulted when somebody tells me that I'm not doing enough to keep Colorado a decent place to live. I'm doing--and have done for MANY years--a hell of a lot more to preserve this state than most. If I'm guilty of anything, it's for actually giving a s*** about this place in which I have invested of myself for the last half-century plus, and for actually voicing some real concerns about what is happening to it.