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Old 10-17-2009, 12:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I agree with some of the above, but I was just talking on another thread about how practically every state claims to be about 49th in education by some method of calculation, especially when election time comes around. In per capita expenditures for K-12, Colorado ranks 31:

Per-capita state and local education spending, FY 2005-2006 - Just The Facts - The Public Policy Institute

For per-pupil expenditures, Colorado is 39.

http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/07f33pub.pdf
The issue with numbers is whose numbers do we use, what do they include in the cost calculations and how old are they.

I've seen COLO listed as 47th in other citations, and a google search turns up this link at Education News Colorado. In THIS link it states: "Colorado ranks 47th in the nation in total state spending per $1,000 dollars of personal income, and 45th in state spending per capita, according to a study released Thursday by the Colorado Fiscal Policy Institute." ... Frankly, I don't know what it means when they link spending to personal income; I need a scorecard to decipher not just the policy-speak, but to advise me as to what does it MEAN as far as how we're doing here.

The NY numbers in your first link seem awfully low. I recall being back in the DC area and hearing numbers like $12k per child per year.

Here's a set of numbers from 1996 that are double-triple what the NY numbers are stating.

Here's another set of number that indicate a national average of about $9.3k per student.

Here are US Dept of Edu numbers supporting an average of $9.3K per child.

Here's a US Govt chart showing that COLO is about 28th, using stats in column two, if using column three, COLO is about 35th.

IMO, I'd have to take a week long tutorial class with educators to make sense of all these numbers, what conclusions to draw from them and how they relate to the concept of educational quality.
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 10-17-2009 at 12:55 PM..
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:54 PM
Status: "Happy Thanksgiving Week!" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
69,698 posts, read 59,955,448 times
Reputation: 19992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
The issue with numbers is whose numbers do we use, what do they include in the cost calculations and how old are they.

I've seen COLO listed as 47th in other citations, and a google search turns up this link at Education News Colorado. In THIS link it states: "Colorado ranks 47th in the nation in total state spending per $1,000 dollars of personal income, and 45th in state spending per capita, according to a study released Thursday by the Colorado Fiscal Policy Institute." ... Frankly, I don't know what it means when they link spending to personal income; I need a scorecard to decipher not just the policy-speak, but to advise me as to what does it MEAN as far as how we're doing here.

The NY numbers in your first link seem awfully low. I recall being back in the DC area and hearing numbers like $12k per child per year.

Here's a set of numbers from 1996 that are double-triple what in the NY numbers are stating.

Here's another set of number that indicate a national average of about $9.3k per student.

Here are US Dept of Edu numbers supporting an average of $9.3K per child.

Here's a US Govt chart showing that COLO is about 28th, using stats in column two, if using column three, COLO is about 35th.

IMO, I'd have to take a half-day tutorial class with the educators to make sense of all these numbers.
I do a lot of volunteer work in education, and I questioned that relation of ed spending to personal income, too. I used to believe some of this hype until talking to people in other states who were sure that their states were 49th as well. I now think it all comes down to the old book, "How to Lie With Statistics". It does sound good at election time, if you're pushing a tax hike.
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Old 10-17-2009, 03:02 PM
 
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I always thought the liberal philosophy of if you spend X dollars you get Y return is stupid. The actuality is the $$$ has nothing to do with the results or the quality. Of course results aren't important to liberals, only the continued bankrupting and control of the country and it's citizens.

I remember growing up for part of my youth and being educated in Alabama. The local school board pushed repeatedly to extract more money from the local taxpayers which was successful. The money was spent on an $8 million palace for the bureaucrats and superintendent and for the football program. Of course it didn't matter we had old out of date teachers and rickety desks that fell apart, sometimes in class. But if you looked at the numbers, we were spending heaps of money on "education" and I guess it warmed the cockles of the liberals hearts, despite the fact the results sucked.

Later when I attended Troy State University, I remember going through orientation and them describing this program and that program, most of which had bugger all to do with actual learning, but it kept a fleet of bureaucrats working off the taxpayers and students dime. There was a liberal radical professor who was a hippy retread that I battled with frequently. He finally came around to the fact that just because X amount of dollars is spent on education, it doesn't necessarily mean the quality of education is there or that the money is reaching the students, the students of course being the point of education, not the employment of bureaucrats.
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Old 10-18-2009, 06:58 AM
 
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Gotta' agree with the conclusions of teaching quality/educational results per wanneroo here.

The proof, to me, is watching the quality of education results I see on an almost daily basis from a local mennonite church school, and from a number of "home schoolers" in the vicinity of our ranch.

I've watched a number of the church school kids since they were in elementary grades, and now have seen them graduate the high school level, as well as been around a number of the young adults in their community that I do business with. IMO, their high school level grads have an education that's comparable to many kids with 2-3 years of college, sometimes more, when it comes to math, science, english, writing & communication skills, and analytical thinking. They're pretty strong on general topics, too, and fairly well read on many issues. Obviously, being a church run school, they do have some pretty strong training in social and political issues in accordance with their church doctrine.

What's most impressive about their education is that they spend so little to accomplish it with such good results. Locally, they have the use of the main church building and a trailer with two classrooms. Sports are pretty much limited to the softball diamond, so there's not a lot of money spent there, either. The local school has a couple of young teachers supported by the community, and the administration functions are peformed by volunteer elders of the church. I doubt they're spending more than a couple thousand dollars per student per school year to accomplish their excellent results.

Certainly, they're held together by a community of very strong family/church relationships. They mainstream all of their kids, including the ones that might needing special programs in the public schools. Given their strict church teachings, they're not distracted by a lot of the cr** that the public schools have to deal with, ranging from discipline/classroom disruptions issues, to kids emulating lifestyle choices from what they perceive to be "negative influences" from sources such as music, theater, movies, or books.

Along with this result, I also see a number of home-schooled kids in the area. Due to state mandated testing at certain grade levels, the kids are tested. There was an aggressive move regionally to shut down home schooling by forcing the testing upon them, and the professional education crowd fully expected that the home schoolers were going to come up short; however, the test results yielded much better outcomes. Considering that the home schoolers are taught mostly by non-professional educators, and without all the administrative and support services that add so much to the public school overhead of non-teaching staff, the proof is at hand that inexpensive education can yield good results. Most of the home schoolers I see use a number of courses/teaching curriculum and books that are targeted to their use. Most of the folks are doing this because they sincerely object to a lot of the policies and material taught in the public schools. It takes a lot of commitment to pursue the daily hours needed to teach just a couple of kids at home, but I see results in well socialized, well educated, successful and motivated kids ... without a lot of money spent.
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