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Old 01-25-2010, 08:16 PM
 
16,438 posts, read 19,066,661 times
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"It's ( virtual workers who will move there because that's where they want to live ) coming big time".



I want to say this as gently as possible because it affects so many Americans who will soon lose their jobs: you do understand, do you not, that a "virtual" job can be done from Mumbai just as easily as Colorado, and at one fourth the cost?

 
Old 01-25-2010, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,131 posts, read 26,989,181 times
Reputation: 6824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
"It's ( virtual workers who will move there because that's where they want to live ) coming big time".



I want to say this as gently as possible because it affects so many Americans who will soon lose their jobs: you do understand, do you not, that a "virtual" job can be done from Mumbai just as easily as Colorado, and at one fourth the cost?
Not if you need a security clearance to do it. Also, labor in Mumbai is getting much more expensive than it used to be so outsourcing to India for skilled work is becoming less attractive. Most of the jobs going overseas are lower skill manufacturing jobs. A lot of companies that have tried moving jobs that require more thinking than following a script are experienciong disappointing results in India. Indian workers just aren't on the same level. It may be the culture but too many Indian workers just don't have the critical thinking skills required in a knowledge economy.

Last edited by CAVA1990; 01-25-2010 at 08:31 PM..
 
Old 01-25-2010, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,733,362 times
Reputation: 1696
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
Not if you need a security clearance to do it. Also, labor in Mumbai is getting much more expensive than it used to be so outsourcing to India for skilled work is becoming less attractive. Most of the jobs going overseas are lower skill manufacturing jobs. A lot of companies that have tried moving jobs that require more thinking than following a script are experienciong disappointing results in India. Indian workers just aren't on the same level. It may be the culture but too many Indian workers just don't have the critical thinking skills required in a knowledge economy.
Much more expensive than the $1/hr it used to be leaves a lot of room still before it becomes uncompetitive.

You can get an Indian computer scientist with a Ph.D. to work 12 hour days for $200/day with no health care/pension benefits or payments to social security/UE etc. Properly managed, that won't produce disappointing results, unless maybe you're one of the American workers that won't be doing that work.

India remains a tremendous threat to entire categories of American IT workers.


Denial is not a river in Egypt
 
Old 01-25-2010, 10:47 PM
 
857 posts, read 1,405,688 times
Reputation: 186
Default The Randal O'Toole School Of Thought Responds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
Says who? It's only the Ponzi financiers that have the lemming brigade sitting on their haunches panting "growth is good, growth is necessary, no growth means certain death, etc etc." It is not only possible for a population to thrive at zero growth, at some point in the near future it will become unavoidable as a result of resource competition and depletion. Exponential growth in a finite world is a mathematical impossibility.

Hate to break it to you, but we're already over 13% when you use a more historically consistent measure like the U-6 figures. And it's ludicrous to suggest that with the insane amount of overbuilding that just occurred and is blowing up all across the looted plains, that we need to ramp up the construction industry here again anytime soon.
Limits on the supply of natural resources aren't theoretical at all. Unfortunately, this is the typical American response to a shortage--"WE'RE RUNNING OUT SO WE HAVE TO FIND MORE SO WE CAN CONSUME THAT TOO!!" The desire to consume less and, in the process not turn our entire landscape into a patchwork of open-pit mines and sprawling unsustainable urban wastelands isn't left, right, or libertarian in nature.


Unlimited growth is the ideology of the cancer cell
Bob - great comments w/ all due respect, as always . . .

1. First, I graduated about 9 years ago with a science degree. We didn't study concepts such as "zero population growth." Frankly, I find this forum amazing, because I've never heard of terms such as "resource competition and depletion." But that's cool and I'm not criticizing anyone's college or the discipline they studied.
In Geology, we learned that the amount of natural resources is only a function of what we can measure at a given point in time.
I wonder who / where is teaching this "environmental" material.
I read my scientific info from the technical journals, and web sites for NOAA and the USGS.

1. First, for any species, one can't have zero growth, due to population growth and reproduction.

2. There hasn't been any overbuilding. The homes were occupied prior to the foreclosures. The issue is supply and demand. When the supply is restricted due to urban growth boundaries, then the cost goes up and you have a bubble, as has occured cyclically in California for 40 years (see the graph in the O'Toole article).

3. Resource competition and depletion is a generalized statement, and isn't part of anything in what I studied in college: Botany, Geology, Climatology, Meteorology. One would have to prove what has been depleted, and how this affects human survival. So far, we haven't run out of anything, except a few endangered plant and animal species. However, you'll often find that Scientists (myself included) are prominent volunteers and/or backers, of privately funded nature preserves to save endangered species. Near Phoenix, Cave Creek, Arizona buys state lands to convert to an open space system. And that's a conservative place; Boulder is a liberal place and has done the same.

4. Others can enjoy their smart growth condo in Boulder or Durango going to the theater each night. I'd prefer a small farm on 50 acres relaxing in comfort enjoying the view off my deck, over thousands of native plant species that attract more bird species than any park in Metro Boulder will ever support. And, part of my rent won't have to pay the landscapers.
To me the smart growth issue is about economics, aesthetics, and plant/animal diversity and eventual habitation and ultimate speciation.

5. Back to Colorado. If Boulder and Durango wish to continue w/ their Smart Growth and Infilling, go ahead, it's a free country with elected city council positions. However, it excludes those of us who can't afford to live there. Perhaps the plan, to attract IT professionals only to these places. Perhaps pursuing a smart growth agenda + hi-tech in Boulder and elsewhere can help retain state revenues. As for the rest of Colorado, I see no problem with increasing oil, gas, timber, and minerals, however, I also see that others here disagree, so it will be a debate in the years ahead . . . Same problem in many other Western states . . .

As for the construction industry, you say it would be ridiculous to bring it back. I disagree, since Construction is the basis of society since people are always moving to major cities. In Houston, Zoning is illegal. Construction is booming, people are moving into town, and unemployment is low. Down there, Developers will take 10,000 acres, and zone it themselves, including large areas for parks. They know they can get more money for homes that border the parks. The impact fees are paid back over 30 years, and not passed onto the homebuyer. So the average cost of a home is about $150,000.
 
Old 01-26-2010, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,733,362 times
Reputation: 1696
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCVDUR View Post
1. First, for any species, one can't have zero growth, due to population growth and reproduction.
Population growth is the delta between the birth rate and death rate. If births are equal to deaths, you have zero growth. C'mon now, that isn't even college level biology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCVDUR View Post
2. There hasn't been any overbuilding. The homes were occupied prior to the foreclosures. The issue is supply and demand. When the supply is restricted due to urban growth boundaries, then the cost goes up and you have a bubble, as has occured cyclically in California for 40 years (see the graph in the O'Toole article).
There has been massive overbuilding when you consider what the population can afford based on incomes. If your hypothesis was correct, we wouldn't have something like 2 million empty houses in the US right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCVDUR View Post
3. Resource competition and depletion is a generalized statement, and isn't part of anything in what I studied in college: Botany, Geology, Climatology, Meteorology. One would have to prove what has been depleted, and how this affects human survival. So far, we haven't run out of anything, except a few endangered plant and animal species.
Millions of people in Africa that have no access to safe fresh water would disagree. The range wars fought over water since the settlement of the US west is another counterpoint. And try checking out the production levels at the Cantrell oil fields in Mexico for a good check on depletion of oil reserves.

I find it impossible to believe that any in-depth formal study in the fields you mention would not touch on the very real problems with global and/or local competition for limited resources. You live in AZ...take a trip to Miami-Globe to see the very real aftermath of the depletion of copper reserves there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCVDUR View Post
As for the construction industry, you say it would be ridiculous to bring it back. I disagree, since Construction is the basis of society since people are always moving to major cities. In Houston, Zoning is illegal. Construction is booming, people are moving into town, and unemployment is low. Down there, Developers will take 10,000 acres, and zone it themselves, including large areas for parks. They know they can get more money for homes that border the parks. The impact fees are paid back over 30 years, and not passed onto the homebuyer. So the average cost of a home is about $150,000.
This sounds like something straight out of some Communist Chamber of Commerce propaganda manifesto. Houston is a poster child for congested, dirty, polluted, uncontrolled crime-infested sprawl. If you think it's so great, I recommend you move there..but take an assault rifle with you. I mean really, it's even nastier than Pueblo.
 
Old 01-26-2010, 04:23 AM
 
267 posts, read 1,255,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinstyler View Post
Colorado is not coming out of the recession. What the news neglect to mention is that Colorado is one of the last in, so we're suffering the START of our recession now.
Maybe so but actually the Denver media had made it seem that Colorado has been in a "deep depression" for quite some time now. For example FOUR years ago when my company told me that Denver would be included in my territory, a friend of mine who lives in Tennessee who is a big time KOA Radio news junkie ( don't ask ), anyway she went on and on "warning" me to not do business in Colorado because that according to what she had heard on KOA Denver's economy is actually WORSE than Detroit's and again this was FOUR years ago. Love to know where KOA had gotten that info maybe they were using their 50,000 watts of power to keep people away from Colorado, I guess.

Flash forward to 2007...even before Colorado officially entered a recession not only was KCNC-TV "CBS 4" already doing reports on "How to beat the recession" but on FOX 31 News one weekend I actually saw an anchor make a comment about how Denver's economy "..wasn't all that bad" only to have his co-anchor say "..OH YES IT IS BAD...our economy SUCKS !!"..and this was on LIVE TV !!! I was at a bar on the 16th Street Mall watching this and the guy beside me said "...yeah man TV out here is like that..they love to scare !!". And I am not even going to begin with The Denver Post and how they make it seem that if one little store closes in Cherry Creek..then the whole entire shopping center is in serious jeopardy.

Kinda makes me want to ask to these people "...just how bad do you want your local economy to be?"
 
Old 01-26-2010, 09:21 AM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,753,900 times
Reputation: 9130
CCVDUR,

I would suggest that you watch the following:

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/files/AON%20Annual%20Energy%20Insurance%20Symposium.pdf (broken link)

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/files/ASPO%202009%20Final.pdf (broken link)

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/files/Houston%20Energy%20Institute.pdf (broken link)

And this video is probably not mistitled:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

WATCH ALL EIGHT PARTS--this professor is not some idiot crackpot.

Overpopulation and resource depletion are REAL. They are facts of nature. To think otherwise flies directly in the face of science--which you SAY is what your degree is. If this was never discussed in your education, I can't imagine what kind of box of Cracker Jacks your degree came out of.

By the way, I am pretty much a conservative free-market kind of person, but whatever one's bent on economics, it does not change the fact that we have finite resources, and some of those are now depleting beyond what can be either practically or economically recovered.

I'm frequently asked why I am so rabid about the issue of stopping overpopulation in this country and in this state. Aside from the fact that overpopulation at its worst will make bare survival very difficult, long before then it will destroy civility, individual freedom, free enterprise, and democracy--all institutions that I find very precious. As author Isaac Asimov put it so eloquently:

Quote:
"Right now most of the world is living under appalling conditions. We can't possibly improve the conditions of everyone. We can't raise the entire world to the average standard of living in the United States because we don't have the resources and the ability to distribute well enough for that. So right now as it is, we have condemned most of the world to a miserable, starvation level of existence. And it will just get worse as the population continues to go up... Democracy cannot survive overpopulation. Human dignity cannot survive it. Convenience and decency cannot survive it. As you put more and more people onto the world, the value of life not only declines, it disappears. It doesn't matter if someone dies. The more people there are, the less one individual matters."
 
Old 01-26-2010, 09:59 AM
 
13,267 posts, read 25,426,082 times
Reputation: 20233
Anyone who fails to think overpopulation/resources is an issue has clearly never been to Haiti (pre-quake) or any Third World city (rather shantytowns for miles around the downtown) or looked at any world stats on mortality, morbidity, and quality of life. Yes, there isn't perfectly even distribution of resources, and there never will be- but there still isn't enough for every person to lead a decent life (clean water, literacy, minimal preventable illness and suffering).
I saw a projection the U.S. will have 440 million people by 2050. I remember when it was 200 million.
One poster said he/she would rather have their 50 acres of peace and quiet and habitat. So if even some of that 440 million (or current 300+ million) want the same... where is it, and what effect will it have? Unfortunately, I think smart growth/infill/cluster living might be the only thing that makes environmental sense- and I don't necessarily want to live in that, either.
There are unending numbers of people in this whole world who would love to live here. Most of them are poor, many well beyond our American imaginations. How much is too much?
 
Old 01-26-2010, 10:18 AM
 
20,815 posts, read 39,004,280 times
Reputation: 19005
Suu-eeee....how did we get from "Colorado Coming Out of the Recession" to Zero Population Growth, Resource Depletion, et al.

I can see me moving half of this thread to a new thread in P&OC or elsewhere.
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Old 01-28-2010, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Rhode Island (Splash!)
1,150 posts, read 2,350,734 times
Reputation: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Suu-eeee....how did we get from "Colorado Coming Out of the Recession" to Zero Population Growth, Resource Depletion, et al.

I can see me moving half of this thread to a new thread in P&OC or elsewhere.



Bob, all six Appliance World locations in Colorado are closing due to imminent bankruptcy filing. Okay, do your little dance again...
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