U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 12-12-2009, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
12,173 posts, read 20,938,705 times
Reputation: 4258

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
Well, there's this green shoot from the Dept of Labor:
"States reported 4,178,780 persons claiming EUC (Emergency Unemployment Compensation) benefits for the week ending Nov. 21, an increase of 327,729 from the prior week. There were 729,256 claimants in the comparable week in 2008. EUC weekly claims include first, second, and third tier activity."

That's only a 570% Y-O-Y increase. Things must be getting better... (??)
Thanks but I think I will wait for the official unemployment numbers by the state of Colorado, it was 6.9% in October.

 
Old 12-12-2009, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,734,052 times
Reputation: 1696
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenkonami View Post
You *can* borrow your way out of debt if you are using that credit to advance some kind of investment that will pay dividends down the line that exceed the sum of your debt and interest payments. It's the basic premise of business borrowing.
I don't disagree that it is possible to incur sensible levels of debt to invest in means of production.

That said, the biggest problem we have in our economy is the collapse of heavily leveraged debt, invested unwisely not in productive enterprise, but to facilitate consumption at levels far beyond our production. We are in a deep, deep hole, and we're not talking about borrowing to buy a ladder to get out of it; instead we're trying to buy ten thousand more shovels so we can dig even faster.

When we hear the government talk about "restoring the flow of credit to the consumer," they are NOT talking about borrowing to advance some kind of investment for the future. When we see the government strapping on billions and billions of dollars of liability for poorly underwritten mortgage debt, they are not spending that money to enhance the economy's means of production, productivity, or incomes. Rather than allowing the bad debt to clear, as it eventually must (and will), they are spending our limited resources and borrowing us deeply into debt to try and prop up a Ponzi pyramid that has reached the precipice.

And sadly, none of the politicians I have communicated with has answered the basic question: how are we going to pay for this? I am convinced that there is no plan, and that these men and women are simply hoping to get through the month, and that the day of wreckoning happens far enough down the road that it's on someone else's watch.

We're eating our seed corn. Paying endless unemployment benefits to displaced workers that are still, 24 months into it, clinging to the hope that they'll get back their jobs as mortgage brokers, realtors, construction workers, and retail salespeople--isn't producing ANYTHING. Borrowing $trillions to give away to banks, hedge funds now disguised as banks, sinking pseudo-governmental Titanics like Phony Mae and Fraudy Mac, and even to individual homeowers [sic] that loaned and/or borrowed recklessly -- PRODUCES NOTHING. Even spending on rebuilding of aging road infrastructure (much of which may be rendered obsolete in the decades ahead as oil availability steadily declines) produces no increase in output in the time frame in which we need it. Meanwhile, we're burning through not only that which we had to apply to the problem, but all that we can borrow as well.

And on the subject of increasing productivity...let it be noted that around 30--yes, that's THIRTY--workers at Craigslist have essentially destroyed the classified ad business and displaced an estimated 100,000 workers in that industry (anyone still remember the Rocky Mountain News?). That's one giant leap in productivity...but not an increase of incomes in that population. Software engineers and call center workers in India are tremendously more productive than the Americans they displaced, many happy to work 16 hours a day for wages at 20-50 cents on the dollar compared to their American counterparts. I'm not sure productivity is inexorably linked to rising incomes...in fact it seems an inverse relationship has developed in the environment of high technology and global wage arbitrage.

If the experience and waste of TARP has taught us nothing else, it's that ACTION led by lustrous rhetoric (like a Treasury Secretary threatening the prospect of marshal law unless he gets unilateral authority to spend $700 Bn in a week's time) can most definitely be at least as unsafe as inaction.

What we need, in a nutshell, is an end to the bailout mindset, to clear the bad debt and let the makers of that bad debt suffer the consequences of their risktaking, to move ahead by focusing our limited resources on the things that will return the AMERICAN population to productive employment, and a re-calibration of standard of living expectations that doesn't drive (or allow) the masses to consume beyond their means.

In the current political environment, I think we are more likely to drive the system to collapse rather than do any of these things.

Last edited by Bob from down south; 12-12-2009 at 10:40 PM..
 
Old 12-13-2009, 12:15 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
1,627 posts, read 3,707,712 times
Reputation: 1778
+1 Excellent points, Bob.

It really does seem that those in power are more interested on restarting an old (failed) system instead of looking to a more rational view of functional economics. And I do agree that probably the major component on that problem is a systemic reliance on the idea of "credit" and "consumption" over "production" and "prudence", from the household to The House.

Much like a certain sci-fi series reboot, they say they have a plan, but I'm just not buying it. I don't expect the outcome to be much better either ^_^
 
Old 12-13-2009, 12:48 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,760,636 times
Reputation: 9130
Bob nailed it right on the head. Meanwhile, the brainwashed American sheeple (and plenty of 'em in Colorado) continue to follow off "Pied Piper" leadership and false prophets in high places right up of the brink of the cliff that could destroy the whole country. It's a pathetic and sad thing to watch--because anyone with half of a brain, a scintilla of common sense, and enough personal responsibility to know right from wrong wouldn't follow our misguided and possibly even evil leadership over the cliff.
 
Old 12-13-2009, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,764 posts, read 16,826,387 times
Reputation: 9316
jazzlover wrote:
anyone with half of a brain, a scintilla of common sense, and enough personal responsibility to know right from wrong wouldn't follow our misguided and possibly even evil leadership over the cliff.
I am convinced that it's more than a mere possibility...unfortunately it's a reality.
 
Old 12-14-2009, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
12,173 posts, read 20,938,705 times
Reputation: 4258
Cap and trade could help Colorado in the long run with how we are becoming the alternative energy capitol. There are many large scale projects, such as the Colorado Energy Park, that would benefit from that proposal.

Last edited by Mike from back east; 12-15-2009 at 08:37 AM..
 
Old 12-14-2009, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,764 posts, read 16,826,387 times
Reputation: 9316
I don't know what jazzlover means specifically by his reference to evil leadership, but I mean the whole d*mn lot of congressional politicians ( democrats and republican alike ), not just the one at the top. Even worse are the un-elected bankers ( Bernanke, Geithner, et al ) appointed to positions of power by the evil leadership of the current administration and the one just past. One administration invariably proves to be as evil ( or moreso ) than the preceding one. As bad as this administration is, I certainly wouldn't want to go back to Bush and his evil gang.

Last edited by Mike from back east; 12-15-2009 at 08:36 AM..
 
Old 12-14-2009, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
12,173 posts, read 20,938,705 times
Reputation: 4258
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
[/indent]I don't know what jazzlover means specifically by his reference to evil leadership, but I mean the whole d*mn lot of congressional politicians ( democrats and republican alike ), not just the one at the top. Even worse are the un-elected bankers ( Bernanke, Geithner, et al ) appointed to positions of power by the evil leadership of the current administration and the one just past. One administration invariably proves to be as evil ( or moreso ) than the preceding one. As bad as this administration is, I certainly wouldn't want to go back to Bush and his evil gang.
I would have to say I am happy with how our Colorado leaders are moving our state into the age of the new energy economy. That should be good for all of us in the coming decade.

Last edited by Mike from back east; 12-15-2009 at 08:36 AM..
 
Old 12-14-2009, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
1,627 posts, read 3,707,712 times
Reputation: 1778
Frankly I did think cap and trade solves anything. It just moves the problem elsewhere.

And I'm a big proponent of clean energy...particularly wind and solar, but I haven't yet figured out how it's going to save Colorado's economy. Though I think it's an excellent idea for the environment, I don't see how new sources of money and production are introduced with it except within the somewhat limited industry of energy, and then it still has to fight more traditional energy income sources.

If Colorado has a plan I'd love to read it, though. We really are at the point where some good is better than no action at all.
 
Old 12-15-2009, 12:41 AM
 
3,460 posts, read 4,932,595 times
Reputation: 6677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie View Post
I would have to say I am happy with how our Colorado leaders are moving our state into the age of the new energy economy. That should be good for all of us in the coming decade.
Sometimes I wonder if you're on the payroll of the DNC.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. | Please obey Forum Rules | Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top