Do you need a Jeep? (Denver, Boulder: mortgage, insurance, military)

[COflower]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

I've got a philosophy that I picked up along the way; "I'd rather have a gun and not need one than to need a gun and not have one."

If you're a woman, then you don't understand. Think of 4WD like you would shoes. Wouldn't you opt two more legs if it meant you could buy twice the shoes? Women buy shoes not because they need shoes, but to keep other women from getting those shoes.

Am I right or am I right?

As a woman I take offense that.

Hey "sweetie" pie. I used to have a black Chevy 3/4 ton, ext. cab, long bed with - get this - a 454 with a manual transmission. I am a petite woman at 5' 3", sometimes very femine and I had it built for me, direct from Michigan. I waited a good 6-8 weeks for that bad boy and put on some screamin' rims on it to match The Beast the Sequel's" personality. Traded in The Beast Part II" for a Suburban when I moved to Denver.

Hauling windows and doors over Vail Pass back and forth from Grand Junction needed a honkin' bad boy like that. Even for a petite little girl like me.

Oh and I am not a lover of shoes. The "pretty" ones are torture devices. These days, give me a good pair of Dansko clogs and I am a happy camper because my feet are happy.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by COflower

As a woman I take offense that.

Hey "sweetie" pie. I used to have a black Chevy 3/4 ton, ext. cab, long bed with - get this - a 454 with a manual transmission. I am a petite woman at 5' 3", sometimes very femine and I had it built for me, direct from Michigan. I waited a good 6-8 weeks for that bad boy and put on some screamin' rims on it to match The Beast the Sequel's" personality. Traded in The Beast Part II" for a Suburban when I moved to Denver.

Hauling windows and doors over Vail Pass back and forth from Grand Junction needed a honkin' bad boy like that. Even for a petite little girl like me.

Oh and I am not a lover of shoes. The "pretty" ones are torture devices. These days, give me a good pair of Dansko clogs and I am a happy camper because my feet are happy.

I was looking for a sense of humor there. My truck was previously owned by the deputy Sheriff of a neighboring town, and SHE took rather good care of it. The only thing I had to change was the "Bada$$ girls drive Bada$$ toys" trailer hitch. Her boyfriend put the pushbar and stuff on it. It's even got a killer stereo in it and a V8 that gets 18 MPG+.

My wife, unlike yourself, has more shoes than we have space in our humble home. Maybe she could take shopping lessons from you.

[COflower]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

I was looking for a sense of humor there. My truck was previously owned by the deputy Sheriff of a neighboring town, and SHE took rather good care of it. The only thing I had to change was the "Bada$$ girls drive Bada$$ toys" trailer hitch. Her boyfriend put the pushbar and stuff on it. It's even got a killer stereo in it and a V8 that gets 18 MPG+.

My wife, unlike yourself, has more shoes than we have space in our humble home. Maybe she could take shopping lessons from you.

I miss my truck but for the gas mileage. There are many times (well this last winter) where I would have loved to have it. Although I would be wise to get new tires for next winter on the Honda.

A lot of women are shoe crazy but since I worked in construction sales, pretty shoes weren't a good idea when climbing into houses with no stairs, potential for mud and dresses/skirts were not a good idea either. Oh and wearing heels to climb a ladder to a roof and walking around wasn't a bright idea either. I still have my Sorel winter boots that I purchased from Target back in the day - they were little boy sizes and not pink or white. I employed them a lot when walking on jobsites up in Glenwood and Snowmass.

I learned my sensible shoe approach during that time. My sis-in-law has "shoe fever" like your wife. I think once it starts you need professional help to break the cycle.

Back to the topic: I think buying a beater truck is a good idea for those that live in outlying areas like Black Forest, Monument, Elizabeth and such. My brother and his family are moving into a remote part of Black Forest this winter and looking for a beater truck with a hefty engine to put a snow plow on the front. But overall, city dwellers and those that don't go camping in remote areas, a small car is fine.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by COflower

I still have my Sorel winter boots that I purchased from Target back in the day

You've gotta have a pair of those! I still have my Klondike Sorels that my ex bought me for Christmas from REI about 17 years ago. They were just a tad too big for me back then but fit perfectly now. I only wore them in the heavy snow so they've still got lots of tread on them. I think they are good down to 60 below. That's all I've got to say about shoe!

If I really had to have a 4WD to get around in the snowy months, I'd look for one of those old 4 cylinder Toyota Landcruisers. They have the lowest center of gravity and will climb a tree. Those 454's should be outlawed. They were a powerful engine, but you talk about bad gas mileage!

[ColoradoPro]

Originally Posted by jmc0270

Do people in Colorado drive little cars?

...I would prefer the Colorado package of mountain town and friendly neighbors, but being single and a teacher I am not sure what I can afford. I will be spending some time out there this summer to find all this out...

For what it's worth, here's my opinion on this:

1) If you are talking about SAFETY overall, then you might think about getting an SUV / larger car (and before you decide to flame me as "gas guzzler" "road 4wd pretty boy" etc.., please hear my point) - when looking at the recent trends, the "thing to do" so to speak is to get the large 4wd suv. Until the mainstream focus shifts back (which some could argue is where things are headed) to a "smaller car" mindset, the safer option is to get the 4wd SUV simply for the fact that big car + big car + accident = less chance of injury than a big car + small car + accident, and since there are more and more big cars out there, logically the best and safest course of action is to get the big car, regardless of the other disadvantages - this is true for anywhere in the country.

2) If you really want to live in a Mountain Town then you probably should look at getting a 4WD SUV (or investing in a good set of cross-country skis). Denver and Mountain towns are two totally different ball games - so it really depends on where you are looking at. A Denver snowstorm might only drop 2-3 inches on the city, but the mountains could get hammered with feet of snow on a regular basis, so you would be stranded without it.

3) SUBARUS aren't all they are cracked up to be, regardless of how many people I see post in this forum. In my opinion, people who drive Subarus tend to think too highly of their car and its capabilities both on the snow and off. As for the gentleman who said earlier that his Subaru could go anywhere the SUV's could go during this past blizzard, and that if he couldn't get through it than the SUV's couldn't, I would beg to differ Moderator cut: insulting, not funny. Sure, I'll concede the fact that once the roads were plowed, any Billykins with a soap box on wheels could drive on the majority of the MAIN roads, but if you live in a lower density / scarcely populated populated area (which it sounds like you fancy), you can expect to wait a LONG time for your streets to get plowed (if they ever do), and WITHOUT an SUV you WILL be stuck in your home during a blizzard like these last few.

4) I for one drive a Land Rover Discovery and I go 4-wheeling often, so call my opinion slanted, but I have owned and operated in the state of Colorado the following cars with no problems:
Daihatsu Charade
Honda Civic
VW Jetta & Bug
1990 Ford Mustang (yes it was a 5.0)
Grand Am
Nissan Maxima
but I can say with confidence that I would recommend a 4WD for the mountains.

[sunsprit]

ColoradoPro ... I'm the guy who posted about getting around with my Subie Legacy Outback Wagon in the snow storms in WYOMING, where a modest snowfall gets drifted into impassable blockades in the roads. My point was ... and remains ... that when the drifts were really bad, no regular SUV or 4x4 pick-up truck got through anyplace I couldn't get through.

Moderator cut: personal - orphaned If you want to add in your opinion about YOUR EXPERIENCE re the OP's thread, than I welcome that.

I've got 15" wheels (standard) on my Subie ... and so does my '96 4x4 Dodge 2500 TurboDiesel PU truck. The ground clearance on both is the same. They'll both high center on snow of the same depth, and I've stuck them both on the unplowed roads around here. The Dodge won't get through anyplace the Subie won't ...

FWIW, our local postal routes are run with Subie postal station wagons ... and they do just fine on the roads that the SUV's and 4x4's get through on. If the Subie wagons aren't getting through, regular Jeeps and 4x4 pick-ups aren't either.

Contrary to expectations about "rain, snow, sleet" ... our Post Office does shut down in inclement weather when the bigger trucks that deliver from the Cheyenne Post Office cannot get through due to road closure or adverse road conditions. They've got more ground clearance and "oomph" to get through than a SUV ... and if they can't get through, the roads are in pretty bad shape. I've gotten out several times in my Subie's when those trucks couldn't get through that day.

OH, by the way ... my second home for many years is in East Vail, Colorado. I've been going up to the Colorado mountains (mainly Aspen) for weekends since 1964, and lived in the CO foothills for years. I'd say I have a fair amount of practical road experience living up there, including commuting from Denver for over 22 ski seasons at least 18 trips per ski season. I've rescued more 4x4, SUV, or Jeep drivers off the road than any other, with my Saabs, MB Diesel Sedans, Audi's, and Subarus. I've been able to go anytime those 4x4's could go ... and, on black ice, a lot better than they could. Many times, I've cruised past 4x4's on black ice at the Eisenhower tunnel that were slipping and sliding all over the place in cars as mundane (and low powered) as a 220D MB running on good snow tires.

I think my most terrifying drive up to the mountains has been in an IHC Scout on black ice ... or a Ford Bronco, or a CJ-6. All a bad piece of work, and thankfully very few left on the roads today.

PS: you might want to check out the safety ratings of the large vehicles you advocate. The fact is that many of them aren't rated as safe in a crash as other vehicles with airbags that don't have the mass but better designed passenger compartments ....

More anecdotal experience re 4x4's vs conventional vehicles ... I have friends who live up Turkey Creek Canyon; they've used Volvo station wagons since the early 70's to commute to work in Denver and their Surbubans get used only to tow boats in nice weather. They even used a Peugeot 504 Diesel Sedan for years to commute year 'round until the motor wore out and wouldn't start in the cold weather after being parked in Denver for the day. On the days that they couldn't get out of their subdivision with the wagons or sedan, the Suburban wasn't getting out, either.

Same thing with friends in Evergreen, Conifer, and Gold Hill. They all drive Subie's, Audi's, and 3 series AWD BMW's. Most don't bother with their M-series MB's or BMW SUV's because in the really nasty weather because they don't need them to get around, and they get better fuel economy with the cars.

[ColoradoPro]

That was a pretty list of 4WD (or AWD as you want to call it) vehicles you named there. I guess you got so angry at my comment you didn't take the time to read the rest of my post mentioning the various 2 wheel drive cars that I've used (notice no mention of AWD). By no means am I saying that it is impossible to make it anywhere in Colorado if you have a little car, on the contrary - I am agreeing that it is possible to navigate Colorado with a 2WD/AWD car and many do, but don't try to blow fairy dust in everyone's eyes by saying that "If you're stuck in your Subaru that everyone else is stuck then too". Yah, 10 ft. snowdrifts can only be brought down by massive machinery, but I don't think anyone was asking about 10ft. snowdrifts, why would you try to drive through that anyways? I can definately tell you from MY experience of driving in Colorado (notice I said COLORADO and not Wyoming) this past winter during the blizzards, and I for one was laughing all the way to the bank seeing all the Subarus and Audis that thought they could make it get stuck. I was even so kind as to help pull a few of them out of their mess.

As for researching my data before I make comments, that was some good advice. After doing a bit of research, I believe I will turn the discussion over to GOVERNMENT authorities who studied ACTUAL crash data (not crash tests on test cars and test dummies) and reported their findings. Department for Transport - Cars: make and model: the risk of driver injury in GB: 2000-2004

or, since apparently you don't like to read long sentences, I will quote from an article on Wikipedia quoting the government statistics from the report (located at Road accident statistics on a model-by-model basis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

The statistics show that for popular, lightly built cars occupants have a 6%-8% chance of death in a two car accident. (e.g. BMW 3 series 6%, Subaru Impreza 8%, Honda Accord 6%). Traditional "safety cars" such as the Volvos halve that chance (Volvo 700 4% incidence of death, Volvo 900 3%).

or my favorite part -

Overall the four best vehicles to be in are the Jaguar XJ series 1%, Mercedes-Benz S-Class / SEC 1%, Land Rover Defender 1% and Land Rover Discovery 1%.

and in case you wanted to do some more reading or aren't convinced about light vs. heavy vehicles, maybe this article from the director of regulatory policy studies at American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research will make a bit more sense - AEI - Short Publications

[sunsprit]

Yes, it's very relevant to our US Model cars driving/safety experience to cite statistics and studies from the UK car models and driving, isn't it? They drive the same cars and mix of vehicles on the road that we do ... don't they?

and in similar road conditions to the dry and high altitude that we drive in Colorado and Wyoming, don't they?

I don't think so. Why don't you seek out US Gov't NHTSA crash test data? It might better reflect the actual models and cars we drive in the USA, with a very different picture than you cite. I'll concede that with your infinitely superior wisdom and ability to read long sentences that is far better than mine that you just might get some relevant information.

As far as being responsive to the OP's question ... you admit that your fine collection of non AWD or 4x4 vehicles did just fine to get around in Colorado. Thanks for agreeing with me that "no, you don't need a jeep".

[ColoradoPro]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

Yes, it's very relevant to our US Model cars driving/safety experience to cite statistics and studies from the UK car models and driving, isn't it? They drive the same cars and mix of vehicles on the road that we do ... don't they?
and in similar road conditions to the dry and high altitude that we drive in Colorado and Wyoming, don't they?
I don't think so. Why don't you seek out US Gov't NHTSA crash test data? It might better reflect the actual models and cars we drive in the USA, with a very different picture than you cite. I'll concede that with your infinitely superior wisdom and ability to read long sentences that is far better than mine that you just might get some relevant information.

Umm - if you would have read the report, you would have noticed that a lot of the models YOU were talking about were listed. And yes, I believe there are a lot of areas throughout Europe that have high to low altitude differentials / experience similar weather patterns to Colorado. Go to your Geography book and look up "THE ALPS" since you apparently loathe doing so. And since the model of car I was specifically referring to happens to be manufactured in Europe (that being my Land Rover Discovery, and, now that I think about it - almost EVERY car you named - IE VW, Audi, SAAB, Subaru in Japan). NONE of the cars YOU recommended are American made cars, so yes statistics taken from the continent where the cars were manufactured are extremely applicable in this comparison. Also - if you would have read more into the articles which again obviously you didn't, you would have seen that the data collected was real-world crash data, not tests done in controlled environments. Sure, a subaru looks great in an offset crash when compared to a vehicle 3-4 times its weight, but that's not how most real world accidents happen. Most accidents involve 2 or more cars, and in such cases the larger vehicles, referred to in the second quoted report as LTVs, had a lower mortality rate than smaller cars. They go further to say that the comparison between LTV vs Light car and LTV vs LTV showed that the latter of the two types ended up in an extremely smaller percentage of deaths than the former. I believe real crash data about models manufactured in their countries where they have the AUTOBAHN is more than applicable and further research is not necessary. There is no way to spin the logic of this, no matter how hard you try, but it's funny to watch none the less.

As far as being responsive to the OP's question ... you admit that your fine collection of non AWD or 4x4 vehicles did just fine to get around in Colorado. Thanks for agreeing with me that "no, you don't need a jeep".

If you want to get technical about the OP - the forum is a Colorado forum - notice it doesn't say Colorado / Wyoming. We are all glad you have a nice vacation home in Asspen, but she was asking for advice from people who live in Colorado.

Let me take the time to refine my previous statement - "No, I don't believe you need a "Jeep" if you live in Denver, but if you are serious about living in the mountain towns, a good SUV (notice I said SUV - not jeep) would be a very wise investment, more so than a Subaru." Why you ask? Because although you get great traction on ice in a Subaru, many drivers get a false confidence in that and drive much faster than they should and end up causing many of the accidents. I just wanted to give her an honest opinion instead of a jaded opinion from a dude who "visits the state frequently" and "knows people".

[sunsprit]

ColoradoPro ... since you've obviously proven without a doubt at this point that you're incapable of reading sentences of any length and absorbing clearly described content, let me repeat and clarify a few things for you in simple English:

1) I lived in Colorado from 1964 through 1999, in and along the Front Range, and in VAIL (where I still maintain my 2nd Home). I'm assuming that qualifies as first hand Colorado knowledge and residency, even in your limited view.

2) You apparently don't know that many of the cars I cited are now MANUFACTURED in the USA, for example, Subaru.

3) Nor do you know, apparently, that cars of similar family vintage are designed and built for specific markets, and that includes different structural integrity and body parts. I spent enough years working on and converting to USA Spec's GRAY MARKET EURO CARS (MB, BMW, Audi, VW) to know the differences and the ways that the manufacturers comply with their home market in Europe which is quite different than what they ship to the USA. For example, MB didn't include the door side panel reinforcement in their European delivery model cars that was REQUIRED to comply with USA specs. Bumpers, too, were totally different in their impact/structural qualities. To sum up, the cars were NOT AS SAFE NOR THE SAME as the cars they shipped to the USA market. Many were built LIGHTER to PERFORM BETTER and ... in the view of the designers/stylists/marketing teams, to look (and sell) better in the respective markets.

4) You apparently also don't have any concept of the European Alpine CLIMATE in comparison to Colorado's. It's a much wetter and more humid climate. They do a lot of skiing on wet, heavy snow and ice compared to Colorado dry powder snow. According to my friends who are working there, they don't have to deal with the "black ice" which forms so frequently in Colorado on much less snowfall due to the intense sunshine and melting/refreezing cycle in Colorado's high country. I've had friends come over from Europe to Colorado to ski, and they always marvel at the different snow that we have here.

5) And how is it that only "subaru drivers" are the ones who enjoy "great traction" on ice and drive with "overconfidence", thus "causing many accidents"? Do you have any supporting evidence besides the fabrication of data in your own mind?

6) Nothing jaded about this "dude" re winter driving. When I was in the auto repair business in Denver (for over 25 years), I got to see which cars came in for crunch repairs ... and from what driving conditions. Now retired from that business, I'm a manufacturer's rep, putting on about 50K miles per year traveling through CO, WY, and UT. In case you hadn't noticed ... all these states have high altitude severe driving conditions, and my Subaru's do just fine, thank you.