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Old 12-27-2016, 10:03 AM
 
Location: 352
5,060 posts, read 3,493,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
In my mind, and in the many of many Charlestonians, North Charleston really isn't its own city; it's just the suburban northern extension of Charleston and essentially acts as such. That's primarily why it doesn't have its own urbanized area and never did.

I don't really think Hilton Head's municipal population is true to its size either; the municipal population is just over half of its urbanized area population, but it comes a good bit closer than several other SC cities.
I honestly don't want to do this city vs suburb debate again. If the municipality has a city or town government, then it is a city or a town to me. It shouldn't be any more complex than that. From Columbia at 140,000 all the way down to Smyrna at 45.

Ladson is not a city. North Charleston is.

Being born in North Charleston, living in Charleston, and going to college there, I disagree about Charlestonians not thinking it is real. It is real. I have never said "city of North Charleston" and then had someone debate me on its status. Only on City Data..

It is the 2nd largest city in the region and the state. Point blank. And Boeing of all people agree.

Hilton Head's city limits cover the entire island. There are no donut holes or residents left out. So to me, it is true to it's size. Bluffton and Beaufort are obviously a different story.

I don't care about urbanized areas and I don't use that for criteria. I was talking about city limits. You missed the whole point of my post.
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Old 12-27-2016, 10:40 AM
 
5,743 posts, read 8,819,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandrew5 View Post
Greenville doesn't care about annexing. The "small" image actually works in their favor from a marketing standpoint. Anderson, Spartanburg, and Easley don't either. None of the Upstate cities do really. At least when it comes to residential.

Anderson's been at 26,000 for like 40 years. Makes Anderson look like a stagnant old mill town. In reality Anderson has grown every decade is really over 80,000 at this point. The city just won't annex.

Myrtle Beach I think is the weirdest to me. I remember always going to Myrtle Beach every year and looking at a map, and I'd always (and still am) be amazed at how there was so much in Myrtle Beach that wasn't actually in Myrtle Beach.


Greenville also appears to be surrounded by existing unincorporated older suburbs.. that may have very little interest in annexing.. Charleston and Columbia on the other hand have access via their amoeba type boundaries to claim new/undeveloped land and force developers to annex in order to obtain services... They also seem to have leverage over some existing subdivisions as well that are in their water/sewer service areas. There is still a lot of undeveloped or underdeveloped land within a stone throw of downtown Columbia or in donut holes....near the more urbanized sections of the City that is NOT in the City Limits...... while Greenville seems pretty much surrounded with older residential and commercial development



From a service delivery standpoint maintaining a small compact city has many advantages. In Columbia/Richland my interest in annexation( or even consolidation) is because of the balkanization of the Columbia metro where City and County and sometimes smaller jurisdictions don't always play nice in the sandbox which could lead to other regional problems, high taxes because of duplication of services and competition across a political subdivision line known as a City Limit where things are encourage to move "in or out" of the City by neighboring jurisdictions or political subdivisions. Don't know if that is the case for Gville or not...
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Old 12-27-2016, 11:02 AM
 
27,786 posts, read 24,838,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandrew5 View Post
Being born in North Charleston, living in Charleston, and going to college there, I disagree about Charlestonians not thinking it is real. It is real.
The Charlestonians I know all refer to North Charleston simply as "Charleston." I recall talking to one of my former co-workers who is from the area, and she referenced something being in Charleston that is actually within the city limits of North Charleston. Then when I said, "Oh, in North Charleston," she responded "Same thing."

Quote:
I don't care about urbanized areas and I don't use that for criteria. I was talking about city limits. You missed the whole point of my post.
I didn't miss anything; I'm simply wondering what is your basis for declaring that any municipality's population is reflective of its true size? The only standard that makes sense is urbanized area population. That's what you seemed to be referencing when you said that Anderson's population is really around 80K, as its urbanized area population is 75K.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
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Charlestonians refer to "the north area" a lot when they're talking about North Charleston.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:05 PM
 
Location: 352
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Like I said, as a native Charlestonian, I have never heard or seen North Charleston singled out on purpose other than here on City Data. Some people may do, but so what? People call Mount Pleasant and Summerville "Charleston" too. And others call Lexington "Columbia." It's convenient. Bottom line is if the municipality has a city government, then it is a city.

Charleston, N Charleston, Mt Pleasant, Goose Creek, Summerville, IOP, and Hanahan are cities. Daniel Island, James Island, Johns Island, Ladson, Knightsville, Jedburg, Cainhoy, and Cane Bay are not.

People, including me, call the north area "North Area" sometimes, but it's a contrast to "inside 526." Same way ATL is "Inner and Outer Perimeter." Does not mean N Chas is an afterthought. The North Area to me is literally everything north of 526. It is not strictly for North Charleston.

Mutiny, I look at true size based on the populations within the immediate zip codes and sprawl patterns. I didn't say Anderson was 80,000 because of whatever the urban designation is, but rather my own observations of the zips and development within the Anderson radius.

Again, this all completely misses the point of my original posts.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:20 PM
 
27,786 posts, read 24,838,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandrew5 View Post
Like I said, as a native Charlestonian, I have never heard or seen North Charleston singled out on purpose other than here on City Data. Some people may do, but so what? People call Mount Pleasant and Summerville "Charleston" too. And others call Lexington "Columbia." It's convenient. Bottom line is if the municipality has a city government, then it is a city.

Charleston, N Charleston, Mt Pleasant, Goose Creek, Summerville, IOP, and Hanahan are cities. Daniel Island, James Island, Johns Island, Ladson, Knightsville, Jedburg, Cainhoy, and Cane Bay are not.

People, including me, call the north area "North Area" sometimes, but it's a contrast to "inside 526." Same way ATL is "Inner and Outer Perimeter." Does not mean N Chas is an afterthought. The North Area to me is literally everything north of 526. It is not strictly for North Charleston.
Eh, we'll just leave that at that. It's beyond the scope of this discussion.

Quote:
Mutiny, I look at true size based on the populations within the immediate zip codes and sprawl patterns. I didn't say Anderson was 80,000 because of whatever the urban designation is, but rather my own observations of the zips and development within the Anderson radius.
OK, but it's easier to look at that from the perspective of an established, principal city that has its own suburbs. The population of suburbs that essentially constitute the sprawl of principal cities can rightfully be lumped in with that principal city in terms of determining its true "size." For instance, unincorporated NE Richland consists of somewhere around 100K in and of itself, but that's basically included with Columbia. I don't think the true size of Columbia would decrease by 100K if that area were to incorporate tomorrow.

Quote:
Again, this all completely misses the point of my original posts.
I was responding to something very specific from one of your posts; I understand what you're talking about in terms of municipal population size versus "true" size.
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Old 12-27-2016, 05:48 PM
 
Location: 352
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Its not. Its pretty simple. You're making it complex by having to add unnecessary criteria. A municipality does not have to have a main street or core to be a city. It needs to have city limits, city government, and city services, which North Charleston does. Also needs to have people, and N Charleston has 110,000 of them.

I really don't understand your second paragraph. I just don't look at urban area numbers, I look at city numbers, zip numbers, and a map, and I extrapolate. I know about NE Columbia. I add it to my view of Columbia city.
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Old 12-27-2016, 05:59 PM
 
Location: 352
5,060 posts, read 3,493,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodlands View Post
Greenville also appears to be surrounded by existing unincorporated older suburbs.. that may have very little interest in annexing.. Charleston and Columbia on the other hand have access via their amoeba type boundaries to claim new/undeveloped land and force developers to annex in order to obtain services... They also seem to have leverage over some existing subdivisions as well that are in their water/sewer service areas. There is still a lot of undeveloped or underdeveloped land within a stone throw of downtown Columbia or in donut holes....near the more urbanized sections of the City that is NOT in the City Limits...... while Greenville seems pretty much surrounded with older residential and commercial development



From a service delivery standpoint maintaining a small compact city has many advantages. In Columbia/Richland my interest in annexation( or even consolidation) is because of the balkanization of the Columbia metro where City and County and sometimes smaller jurisdictions don't always play nice in the sandbox which could lead to other regional problems, high taxes because of duplication of services and competition across a political subdivision line known as a City Limit where things are encourage to move "in or out" of the City by neighboring jurisdictions or political subdivisions. Don't know if that is the case for Gville or not...
You're right. Greenville is surrounded, but could still annex them all. Greenville just can't get the SE, where Mauldin is. Greenville won't though. The city just has different appeal with 65,000 on paper vs 275,000 on paper. A lot of people move there because it appears to be a super light version of Charlotte.

The city functions well though. There doesn't appear to be not nice play. No one just has an interest in it. The lazy annexation is a characteristic of the Upstate.

Columbia and Charleston though seem to be in an arms race, for SC standards. The amount of donut holes is crazy.
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Old 12-27-2016, 07:54 PM
 
27,786 posts, read 24,838,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandrew5 View Post
Its not. Its pretty simple. You're making it complex by having to add unnecessary criteria. A municipality does not have to have a main street or core to be a city. It needs to have city limits, city government, and city services, which North Charleston does. Also needs to have people, and N Charleston has 110,000 of them.

I really don't understand your second paragraph. I just don't look at urban area numbers, I look at city numbers, zip numbers, and a map, and I extrapolate. I know about NE Columbia. I add it to my view of Columbia city.
And if NE Richland were to incorporate tomorrow, would the 100K or so people who reside in that area no longer "count" for Columbia?
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Old 12-27-2016, 09:00 PM
 
Location: 352
5,060 posts, read 3,493,621 times
Reputation: 3400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
And if NE Richland were to incorporate tomorrow, would the 100K or so people who reside in that area no longer "count" for Columbia?
NE Columbia, Horrel Hill/Garners corridor, Dentsville, Blythewood, Killian, St Andrews, Pontiac, Seven Oaks, and everything between 26 and 77 are Columbia to me, while they sit un annxed. If you live in any of these areas, you are a "Columbia city" resident to me by theory, because my theory is, if SC had annex laws like NC or most other states, all those areas would be in the city.

If any of those areas decided to incorporate, then no, they are not "Columbia", they are whatever the name is. They are another Forest Acres or Irmo. If NE Columbia annexed itself, it'd be the city of Pontiac or Two Notch or NE Columbia or whatever. If Columbia swallows it, then...it's officially Columbia. If it's left alone, it's a CDP, but in my view, it's Columbia, ghost edition.
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