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Old 04-10-2016, 02:18 AM
 
7,043 posts, read 4,071,957 times
Reputation: 3538
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Can you provide links that show government jobs are generally higher paying in Columbus? Or that it even has the most? I suppose if we are counting all state representatives and their staff being at the Capital, that could be, but I'm more interested in your average government worker. Either way, I'm not seeing the evidence yet. Also, at what level would you consider to be "high-paying"? $100K?

If you can't quantify them, you can't use them to make a point. You're just making an assumption.

Being a capital offers no guarantee on success. State capitals nationally exist in all sorts of economic conditions, population sizes, etc. Columbus is definitely a more successful one, but being a capital alone is not likely to be the reason for that, but rather good historic leadership combined with a lack of reliance on any one industry.
The big money, apart from Ohio State athletic coaches, is at the state pension plans, which makes sense because persons responsible for tens of billions of dollars must be competent and at least reasonably well paid compared to private sector employees. All of these jobs are in Columbus.

It's hard to find data released, but the top investment officials make high six figure incomes, including incentives, and perhaps even 7 figure incomes. And they are well worth it IMO compared with paying for private sector alternatives, such as 2-and-20 (percent of assets/percent of gains above threshold) for hedge fund managers. Despite their immense responsibilities, however, rest assured that none make as much as Urban Meyer.

It's interesting that journalists regularly publish coaching salaries.

Much of the investment manager salaries are based on incentives and so can be weak in a bad investment year.

Note that base salary of just portfolio managers at Ohio PERS is over $125,000.

https://www.opers.org/about/vendor/R...ive%20Plan.pdf

These numbers don't include benefits, such as retirement plan contributions.

I was also thinking about one reason for the seemingly high percentage of government employees in Cleveland. One reason that this number is elevated is because of the relatively large number of Cleveland RTA employees, paid for with much higher mass transit taxes in Cleveland than in Columbus, as well as with greater fare collections due to the more robust services. Again, these funds are raised locally, not supported by state-wide economic activity, therefore minimizing the multiplier effect.

Do you deny that there are large numbers of state lobbyists, etc., in Columbus who are part of the private sector?

250K:

http://www.examiner.com/article/borg...p-chairman-job

300K +:

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind...ars_exces.html

JobsOhio, the secretive contraption of Ohio Republicans, likely is not considered a public entity.

Just because the impact is not well documented nor highly transparent, it's ridiculous to argue that being the state capital isn't highly important to the economy of Columbus.

Last edited by WRnative; 04-10-2016 at 02:29 AM..
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
7,899 posts, read 6,827,481 times
Reputation: 6625
Employer Costs for Employee Compensation news release text

Private sector averaged $33.58/hour.
Our selfless public servants in state and local government : $44.97/hour.

I don't know about you, but a 25% pay raise without having to actually produce 25% more of anything whatsoever sounds good to me!

I honestly can't believe the ignorance I see here. Of course columbus and other cities with enormous quantities of state vampires are shielded from reality.

This is going to be columbus's undoing eventually. In the mean time, 25% more money for doing absolutely nothing of any use! Sweet!
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Old 04-10-2016, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,785 posts, read 12,761,529 times
Reputation: 5448
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
Your point about capital cities not necessarily being successful is certainly true. If anyone ever had some sense and got rid of useless stuff, bureaucracies, state subsidized industries of all stripes, in state capitals, then it's level of success will definitely decline. That's not the case at all right now in Columbus though.
Why don't the 136K and 133K government jobs in Cleveland and Cincinnati, respectively, count? There is this strange attempt to not address this. Columbus has 34K more government jobs than Cleveland. It is fewer jobs than what gets added over the course of a single year, and it is spread over the entire metro. If those 34K jobs disappeared, unemployment might go up about a few percentage points, if that, but they would quickly be replaced by much faster growing industries. The only way that most or all of these jobs would disappear in any of the 3-Cs is if 1. Government itself collapsed in some apocalyptic scenario or 2. All government functions were privatized and run by corporations, which is never going to happen, either.
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Old 04-10-2016, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,785 posts, read 12,761,529 times
Reputation: 5448
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
The big money, apart from Ohio State athletic coaches, is at the state pension plans, which makes sense because persons responsible for tens of billions of dollars must be competent and at least reasonably well paid compared to private sector employees. All of these jobs are in Columbus.

It's hard to find data released, but the top investment officials make high six figure incomes, including incentives, and perhaps even 7 figure incomes. And they are well worth it IMO compared with paying for private sector alternatives, such as 2-and-20 (percent of assets/percent of gains above threshold) for hedge fund managers. Despite their immense responsibilities, however, rest assured that none make as much as Urban Meyer.

It's interesting that journalists regularly publish coaching salaries.

Much of the investment manager salaries are based on incentives and so can be weak in a bad investment year.

Note that base salary of just portfolio managers at Ohio PERS is over $125,000.

https://www.opers.org/about/vendor/R...ive%20Plan.pdf

These numbers don't include benefits, such as retirement plan contributions.

I was also thinking about one reason for the seemingly high percentage of government employees in Cleveland. One reason that this number is elevated is because of the relatively large number of Cleveland RTA employees, paid for with much higher mass transit taxes in Cleveland than in Columbus, as well as with greater fare collections due to the more robust services. Again, these funds are raised locally, not supported by state-wide economic activity, therefore minimizing the multiplier effect.

Do you deny that there are large numbers of state lobbyists, etc., in Columbus who are part of the private sector?

250K:

Borges backed by Gov. Kasich for $250K ORP chairman job | Examiner.com

300K +:

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind...ars_exces.html

JobsOhio, the secretive contraption of Ohio Republicans, likely is not considered a public entity.

Just because the impact is not well documented nor highly transparent, it's ridiculous to argue that being the state capital isn't highly important to the economy of Columbus.

From what I understand, OSU's athletic department is self-funding. Certainly, the football program is.
All state employees work in Columbus? lol, okay. You would also have to show that some higher salaries are unjustifiable vs. similar jobs in the private sector. Meaning are these public employees getting paid vastly more for the same work or are they receiving competitive wages for the job? Your implication here is that high salaries exist exclusively because they are public employees rather than the nature of the work.
Sorry, but Cleveland's RTA receives federal and state funding. It does not exist solely on local tax dollars.
Lobbyists aren't public employees. How many there are is irrelevant.to a discussion on public employees.
Yes, being a state capital is everything. I hear the booming metropolis of Jefferson City, Missouri is just like Vegas.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,785 posts, read 12,761,529 times
Reputation: 5448
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
Employer Costs for Employee Compensation news release text

Private sector averaged $33.58/hour.
Our selfless public servants in state and local government : $44.97/hour.

I don't know about you, but a 25% pay raise without having to actually produce 25% more of anything whatsoever sounds good to me!

I honestly can't believe the ignorance I see here. Of course columbus and other cities with enormous quantities of state vampires are shielded from reality.

This is going to be columbus's undoing eventually. In the mean time, 25% more money for doing absolutely nothing of any use! Sweet!
This isn't Columbus-specific, but a national average based on 15 major metro areas. Columbus' average wages across the board tend to be lower than the national average because cost of living is lower. We still have no information on the wage differences in Columbus between the private and public sector.


I would imagine, though, that at least with your link, the main difference is probably unions. I seem to remember SB5 going down in flames in Ohio as most blue collar workers understand that the middle class does a hell of a lot better when unions are around. Ohio would be Wisconsin or Kansas right now, and they're not in the news recently for positive economic news.
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Old 04-10-2016, 05:52 PM
 
7,043 posts, read 4,071,957 times
Reputation: 3538
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
From what I understand, OSU's athletic department is self-funding. Certainly, the football program is.
All state employees work in Columbus? lol, okay.
Straw man alert!!! Back to jbcmh81 form. I never said or remotely suggested that all state employees work in Columbus. This is a ridiculous assertion to attribute to me. Not funny.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
You would also have to show that some higher salaries are unjustifiable vs. similar jobs in the private sector. Meaning are these public employees getting paid vastly more for the same work or are they receiving competitive wages for the job? Your implication here is that high salaries exist exclusively because they are public employees rather than the nature of the work.
I never said or implied any such thing. Contrary to your disingenuous statement, in post 61, I actually said the state pension fund managers were a bargain compared to their private sector counterparts:

<<
It's hard to find data released, but the top investment officials make high six figure incomes, including incentives, and perhaps even 7 figure incomes. And they are well worth it IMO compared with paying for private sector alternatives, such as 2-and-20 (percent of assets/percent of gains above threshold) for hedge fund managers.>>

All that matters is that the preponderance all pension fund highly-paid investment management and administrative personnel are in Columbus. Ditto, for the Supreme Court and all Ohio elected and government administrative staff. I mentioned Urban Meyer only because he is the highest paid state employee.

JobsOhio is headquartered in Columbus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Sorry, but Cleveland's RTA receives federal and state funding. It does not exist solely on local tax dollars.
Cleveland RTA receives federal capital project matching funds, as does Columbus.

Ohio now has only $7 million of subsidies for public transportation for the entire state.

80 to 85 percent of RTA funding is from the local sales tax and fares.

<< Calabrese pointed out that the Ohio constitution prohibits using the state gasoline tax on public transit, and that the state’s general revenue fund spending on public transit has slid from $43 million in 2002 to $7.3 million in 2015.>>

http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...y-road-for-rta

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Lobbyists aren't public employees. How many there are is irrelevant.to a discussion on public employees.
Yes, being a state capital is everything. I hear the booming metropolis of Jefferson City, Missouri is just like Vegas.
My argument never was about just public employees if you read my posts in this thread. I always said that a large number of highly paid private sector jobs in Columbus were related to the Columbus' status as the state capital and administrative headquarters for state government.

Once again, you are twisting and muddling and misstating the argument to support an inaccurate position.

The Columbus economy, and therefore its need for skyscrapers, is meaningfully impacted by state government and related private sector jobs.
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,785 posts, read 12,761,529 times
Reputation: 5448
WRnative;43669570]Straw man alert!!! Back to jbcmh81 form. I never said or remotely suggested that all state employees work in Columbus. This is a ridiculous assertion to attribute to me. Not funny.

I never said or implied any such thing. Contrary to your disingenuous statement, in post 61, I actually said the state pension fund managers were a bargain compared to their private sector counterparts:

<<
It's hard to find data released, but the top investment officials make high six figure incomes, including incentives, and perhaps even 7 figure incomes. And they are well worth it IMO compared with paying for private sector alternatives, such as 2-and-20 (percent of assets/percent of gains above threshold) for hedge fund managers.>>

All that matters is that the preponderance all pension fund highly-paid investment management and administrative personnel are in Columbus. Ditto, for the Supreme Court and all Ohio elected and government administrative staff. I mentioned Urban Meyer only because he is the highest paid state employee.

JobsOhio is headquartered in Columbus.

Cleveland RTA receives federal capital project matching funds, as does Columbus.

Ohio now has only $7 million of subsidies for public transportation for the entire state.

80 to 85 percent of RTA funding is from the local sales tax and fares.

<< Calabrese pointed out that the Ohio constitution prohibits using the state gasoline tax on public transit, and that the state’s general revenue fund spending on public transit has slid from $43 million in 2002 to $7.3 million in 2015.>>

http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...y-road-for-rta

My argument never was about just public employees if you read my posts in this thread. I always said that a large number of highly paid private sector jobs in Columbus were related to the Columbus' status as the state capital and administrative headquarters for state government.

Once again, you are twisting and muddling and misstating the argument to support an inaccurate position.

The Columbus economy, and therefore its need for skyscrapers, is meaningfully impacted by state government and related private sector jobs.[/quote]


Alright, so the gist is you never said anything you said and never implied directly or indirectly that Columbus lives off the rest of the state unfairly. Just like you haven't plenty of times previously.


Sure. I'm just getting you all wrong. Uh huh.
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Old 04-13-2016, 09:35 AM
 
7,043 posts, read 4,071,957 times
Reputation: 3538
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Alright, so the gist is you never said anything you said and never implied directly or indirectly that Columbus lives off the rest of the state unfairly. Just like you haven't plenty of times previously.


Sure. I'm just getting you all wrong. Uh huh.
Wimpy and inaccurate.

When you can't win an argument based on facts, you resort to misleading distortions of what actually was said by other posters, as I documented in post 66, none of which you refuted.
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Old 04-13-2016, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,785 posts, read 12,761,529 times
Reputation: 5448
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Wimpy and inaccurate.

When you can't win an argument based on facts, you resort to misleading distortions of what actually was said by other posters, as I documented in post 66, none of which you refuted.
Ironic considering how often I have presented facts on the forum, including just in this thread with the government jobs numbers and it was stated that it was hard to believe them. Then the argument changed to education jobs, as if OSU is literally the only Ohio school that ever received public funding, which is so ridiculous I am not sure how anyone could even imply such an obvious lie.

You didn't prove your claims. That's what it comes down to. No one has made any attempt whatsoever to explain how 136K government jobs in Cleveland don't matter at all, but 170K government jobs in Columbus is the outrage of the millennium for Ohio residents.
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Old 04-13-2016, 01:36 PM
 
7,043 posts, read 4,071,957 times
Reputation: 3538
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Ironic considering how often I have presented facts on the forum, including just in this thread with the government jobs numbers and it was stated that it was hard to believe them.
You largely didn't present facts. E.g., you made the preposterous claim that I said that all state jobs are in Ohio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Then the argument changed to education jobs, as if OSU is literally the only Ohio school that ever received public funding, which is so ridiculous I am not sure how anyone could even imply such an obvious lie.
I've personally never focused on Ohio State, except to mention that Urban Meyer is the highest paid employee in Ohio. So this is not an "obvious lie," but another of your patented straw man arguments, attributing statements to another poster that were never made.

What I did focus on were the state pension plan employment in great detail and with facts, and you've conveniently ignored this substantial boon for the Columbus economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
You didn't prove your claims. That's what it comes down to. No one has made any attempt whatsoever to explain how 136K government jobs in Cleveland don't matter at all, but 170K government jobs in Columbus is the outrage of the millennium for Ohio residents.
I've repeatedly said that a big difference is that the Cleveland economy pays for the vast majority of its state and local government jobs, with its state taxes more than covering the cost of state employment.

Columbus Ohio state jobs are greatly paid for the rest of Ohio, creating a massive multiplier effect.

How many times have I said this? How many times have you ignored it?

Just as with your unflinching argument that Columbus casino revenues aren't public funds, a position which nobody else maintains, you likely are the only person in this forum who can't acknowledge the great benefit and importance of Ohio state employment to the Columbus economy.
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