U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Columbus
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-13-2016, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,793 posts, read 12,767,534 times
Reputation: 5459

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
I never said that Columbus didn't have a diverse economy. The cumulative impact of being the state capital is extremely significant, however.
Then why aren't all state capitals doing extremely well?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-13-2016, 11:18 PM
 
3,974 posts, read 5,540,745 times
Reputation: 4007
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
I'm not sure if you know what "spin" means because you can't spin plain numbers. What I posted was reality, and I guess you can try to make excuses for it, but it is what it is. You may not like it. It may directly contradict what you believe, but facts don't change just because you don't like them. It really doesn't matter what the largest employers are or aren't, because the totals in each city are all of similar size when compared to the total jobs. Also, I find it interesting how you think OSU is mainly taxpayer funded, especially, I assume, compared to any other public universities within the state. And how does Cleveland pay for its 136K government jobs? Does Lebron James make large donations to cover them?
Look, I know that this is probably some kind of emotional pride thing where blaming Columbus for all your problems has become a cultural norm. Unfortunately, the evidence just doesn't support you. Have you ever considered that, perhaps, Columbus' leadership over the years have just made many more smart decisions economically? Wild concept!
So, you deny that state government and OSU (both either 100% or largely taxpayer funded) are not the two largest employers in Columbus? Or, do you agree (which you should because it's 100% fact) but just don't feel the economic impact is very large (which you shouldn't because it is).

I find it interesting that you can't see that OSU is a much larger university than any other in the state and that you think that, somehow, state taxes don't serve as a major subsidy to its operation and the compensation of its 19,000+ administration and staff.

Ohio's state government employs over 26,000 people in the Columbus area. By contrast, it employs less than half of that in the Cleveland area. Now, I know people like yourself like to pull out big numbers to patch the gaping holes in a terrible argument. However, are you really trying to insinuate that the 136K "government" jobs in NEO (which of course includes everyone from local mayors to garbage men) are state funded (or funded by LBJ). In that case, does Urban Meyer make large donations to cover the 154K government jobs in the smaller Columbus area? Or, does the state do the same and fund all of them as well? Or, are you simply flapping in the breeze (my vote)?

Again, spin it, deflect it, spew ad hominem attacks -- do whatever you want with it. As smart as you clearly believe Columbus' leadership is, it still doesn't change the fact that Columbus enjoys a large economic benefit at the expense of and sometimes to the detriment to the other municipalities in the state. This isn't exactly a secret and nor should it be a stark revelation.

PS - CBus' 3rd largest employer? That would be the federal government.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2016, 11:26 PM
 
3,974 posts, read 5,540,745 times
Reputation: 4007
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Then why aren't all state capitals doing extremely well?
Many are, especially in comparable states - Indianapolis, Nashville, Madison, Lexington & St. Paul, just to name a few. Charleston is the only large city in WV. That's not a coincidence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2016, 11:46 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,793 posts, read 12,767,534 times
Reputation: 5459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector View Post
Many are, especially in comparable states - Indianapolis, Nashville, Madison, Lexington & St. Paul, just to name a few. Charleston is the only large city in WV. That's not a coincidence.

Madison, Lexington and St. Paul aren't the most important cities within their states. In all those cases, it's not even close.

Here are more capitals that are neither the largest nor most important cities within their states.
Juneau, Alaska
Sacramento, California
Tallahassee, Florida
Springfield, Illinois
Topeka, Kansas
Frankfort, Kentucky
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Annapolis, Maryland
Jefferson City, Missouri
Lincoln, Nebraska
Carson City, Nevada
Albany, New York
Salem, Oregon
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
Olympia, Washington

There are arguably several more that are questionable. For example, Austin is neither the largest nor most important city in Texas (probably 4th at best). It is doing very well, but so are all of Texas' major cities, so it is difficult to determine just how much being a capital matters to it.
You also bring up Charleston, West Virginia, and suggest it is the largest city there "for a reason", meaning because it is the capital. Yet historically, many cities that are capitals now are so because they were designated to the existing largest city in the state. That is obviously not true for Columbus, though, which was laid out specifically as the capital after its location moved around a few times.
As for the rest I didn't list, being the largest city in the state doesn't necessarily mean it is performing particularly well. Charleston, West Virginia has an unemployment rate more than 2 points above the national average and has had falling levels of total non-farm jobs for the past 8 years running. Government jobs there have been stagnant during that period, meaning they have had no bearing on the overall economic trends.

The bottom line here is that, if being a capital has inherent advantages, not all capitals actually seem to take advantage of them if there are. It seems to me that capitals succeed or fail for the same reasons non-capitals do- good leadership.

Last edited by jbcmh81; 04-14-2016 at 12:13 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2016, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,793 posts, read 12,767,534 times
Reputation: 5459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector View Post
So, you deny that state government and OSU (both either 100% or largely taxpayer funded) are not the two largest employers in Columbus? Or, do you agree (which you should because it's 100% fact) but just don't feel the economic impact is very large (which you shouldn't because it is).

I find it interesting that you can't see that OSU is a much larger university than any other in the state and that you think that, somehow, state taxes don't serve as a major subsidy to its operation and the compensation of its 19,000+ administration and staff.

Ohio's state government employs over 26,000 people in the Columbus area. By contrast, it employs less than half of that in the Cleveland area. Now, I know people like yourself like to pull out big numbers to patch the gaping holes in a terrible argument. However, are you really trying to insinuate that the 136K "government" jobs in NEO (which of course includes everyone from local mayors to garbage men) are state funded (or funded by LBJ). In that case, does Urban Meyer make large donations to cover the 154K government jobs in the smaller Columbus area? Or, does the state do the same and fund all of them as well? Or, are you simply flapping in the breeze (my vote)?

Again, spin it, deflect it, spew ad hominem attacks -- do whatever you want with it. As smart as you clearly believe Columbus' leadership is, it still doesn't change the fact that Columbus enjoys a large economic benefit at the expense of and sometimes to the detriment to the other municipalities in the state. This isn't exactly a secret and nor should it be a stark revelation.

PS - CBus' 3rd largest employer? That would be the federal government.
My argument is that if Columbus is going to be criticized for publicly-funded jobs, then every city that has large numbers of publicly-funded jobs should also be. That includes your city of Cleveland. Why the double standard? I am not denying that Columbus and OSU benefit from public dollars, I am just saying that all the 3-Cs do. If it is okay for them, it is okay for Columbus, period, or you're just being a hypocrite with a selective agenda.


Columbus has 170K government jobs, whether they are local, state or federal. You are attempting to create dishonest distinctions to create a narrative. The 136K was in the metro, not all of NEO, btw. Cleveland's MSA has just 5 counties, so that works out to about a 27,200 government job average per county, though I am sure most of them are in Cuyahoga. Columbus' metro, of course, has 10 counties, so that works out to 17,000 government jobs per county, which again, I am sure most of them are in Franklin. Even if you added your 26K OSU number to the total, it would still be an average of 19,600. Strange, though, isn't it, how the average would be so much lower in Columbus' counties, and that is without adding any public university jobs in Cleveland to its own total. It makes one wonder why the Cleveland area needs so gosh-darn many government jobs for a much smaller area? Wasn't that your question about Columbus when you erroneously believed I was talking about all of NEO vs. Columbus? Yeah, it was, wasn't it. To be fair, Cincinnati comes out best in this regard. It would have just under 9,000 per county, so if anyone should be critical, it is probably them. But Cleveland? Absolutely no room to talk.

Last edited by jbcmh81; 04-14-2016 at 12:16 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2016, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
7,905 posts, read 6,835,782 times
Reputation: 6645
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Then why aren't all state capitals doing extremely well?
The ones without productive cities elsewhere to rob from don't do well. Not a problem for Columbus though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2016, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
7,905 posts, read 6,835,782 times
Reputation: 6645
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
My argument is that if Columbus is going to be criticized for publicly-funded jobs, then every city that has large numbers of publicly-funded jobs should also be. That includes your city of Cleveland. Why the double standard? I am not denying that Columbus and OSU benefit from public dollars, I am just saying that all the 3-Cs do. If it is okay for them, it is okay for Columbus, period, or you're just being a hypocrite with a selective agenda.


Columbus has 170K government jobs, whether they are local, state or federal. You are attempting to create dishonest distinctions to create a narrative. The 136K was in the metro, not all of NEO, btw. Cleveland's MSA has just 5 counties, so that works out to about a 27,200 government job average per county, though I am sure most of them are in Cuyahoga. Columbus' metro, of course, has 10 counties, so that works out to 17,000 government jobs per county, which again, I am sure most of them are in Franklin. Even if you added your 26K OSU number to the total, it would still be an average of 19,600. Strange, though, isn't it, how the average would be so much lower in Columbus' counties, and that is without adding any public university jobs in Cleveland to its own total. It makes one wonder why the Cleveland area needs so gosh-darn many government jobs for a much smaller area? Wasn't that your question about Columbus when you erroneously believed I was talking about all of NEO vs. Columbus? Yeah, it was, wasn't it. To be fair, Cincinnati comes out best in this regard. It would have just under 9,000 per county, so if anyone should be critical, it is probably them. But Cleveland? Absolutely no room to talk.
Big difference between local and state/federal. At least local government is extorting locally earned money.

Why doesn't OSU count as government too by the way? Are we forgetting what the "S" stands for?

Your level of dishonesty is repugnant to me. I don't see what the big deal is by saying "hey, Columbus gets a ton of money from places that aren't Columbus. That's not fair. I don't even think we need it." Though to be fair, Columbus really DOES need the government propping it up. Nobody wanted to live their until the state started expanding. Cleveland would be way better off without government dependency.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2016, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
7,905 posts, read 6,835,782 times
Reputation: 6645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector View Post
So, you deny that state government and OSU (both either 100% or largely taxpayer funded) are not the two largest employers in Columbus? Or, do you agree (which you should because it's 100% fact) but just don't feel the economic impact is very large (which you shouldn't because it is).

I find it interesting that you can't see that OSU is a much larger university than any other in the state and that you think that, somehow, state taxes don't serve as a major subsidy to its operation and the compensation of its 19,000+ administration and staff.

Ohio's state government employs over 26,000 people in the Columbus area. By contrast, it employs less than half of that in the Cleveland area. Now, I know people like yourself like to pull out big numbers to patch the gaping holes in a terrible argument. However, are you really trying to insinuate that the 136K "government" jobs in NEO (which of course includes everyone from local mayors to garbage men) are state funded (or funded by LBJ). In that case, does Urban Meyer make large donations to cover the 154K government jobs in the smaller Columbus area? Or, does the state do the same and fund all of them as well? Or, are you simply flapping in the breeze (my vote)?

Again, spin it, deflect it, spew ad hominem attacks -- do whatever you want with it. As smart as you clearly believe Columbus' leadership is, it still doesn't change the fact that Columbus enjoys a large economic benefit at the expense of and sometimes to the detriment to the other municipalities in the state. This isn't exactly a secret and nor should it be a stark revelation.

PS - CBus' 3rd largest employer? That would be the federal government.
Let the Columbusites leech while the blood is still flowing. People like your debate opponent will realize the error when it's too late. Same way Clevelanders (among other Rust Belt cities) priced themselves out of industrial jobs by thinking they could keep passing the costs off on others. That backfired. This will backfire worse, since the state fat cats in government, especially those in Columbus, don't have any useful skills whatsoever to salvage themselves after their positions get cut.

I know certain people here love to portray Columbus as some magical place that is the only city in Ohio that actually has its act together and blah blah blah density population nonsense. I really cannot believe that nobody is admitting that a large percentage of state government and even federal jobs has an impact on an area. Are we supposed to believe that the government has no role in this: http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...nties-are-aro/ ? Don't be naive.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2016, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,793 posts, read 12,767,534 times
Reputation: 5459
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
The ones without productive cities elsewhere to rob from don't do well. Not a problem for Columbus though.
Wait, what? All of the capitals I listed above have much more successful, productive cities in their states that they could potentially "rob from". And the narrative being sold here is that being a capital has INHERENT advantages, meaning it would not need to rob from any other place. It would do just fine on its own. Across the nation, however, there are plenty of examples with very different circumstances that show no actual pattern on capital success. Their economic power, population growth, etc. all significantly vary. Your position doesn't make logical sense because the reality on the ground doesn't support your theory. For your position to be true, every single capital should be at least economically stable with healthy population growth regardless of external conditions, yet they are not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2016, 11:14 AM
 
7,070 posts, read 4,082,267 times
Reputation: 3565
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
No, I didn't. I said people are saying that the government or otherwise publicly-funded jobs in Columbus are all off the backs of others outside of the metro. This is a very common theme on this forum. Many people believe wholeheartedly that Columbus' success is at the unquestionable detriment of the rest of the state.
Another straw-man rant.

Clearly, Columbus benefits tremendously from being the state capital. The constant influx of state tax dollars from the rest of the state creates an undeniable economic multiplier effect.

Yet Columbus clearly has many other economic mainstays, including its success in retail and consumer services (Wendy's, Bob Evans, White Castle, etc.)

Nobody, except in your exaggerated, persecuted imagination, believes "wholeheartedly" that Columbus' success is at the "unquestionable detriment" of the rest of the state.

That's just your frenzied, straw man rant.

What I initially said is that the rest of Ohio may at some time demand the decentralization of state government. Cloud and virtual communication technology may facilitate this.

What clearly is not a level playing field is the toll structure of the "Republican Toll Road" in northern Ohio. The leveraging of the Ohio Turnpike and even the continued existence of the Ohio Turnpike is detrimental to the northern Ohio economy and therefore the entire Ohio economy. Yet it has been championed by central and southern Ohio politicians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Why even bring up the football program or Urban Meyer it not to try to attempt to make a point about where funding for it comes from? It was absolutely an attempt to suggest that OSU lives off public dollars, and no attempt was otherwise made to dfreiscuss how other public universities receive public funding as well. Come on, you guys always do this. Bring something up that is so obvious what the point is, and then scream that you only had the most innocent of intentions. Does this stuff work in your lives normally?
You shamelessly attribute statements to others that they never made. I never mentioned Ohio State or Ohio State football. As I've said repeatedly, I mentioned Urban Meyer in relation to pension fund salaries, which, although very high, are dwarfed by Meyer's compensation.

Do you constantly in your everyday life twist persons' comments and put words in their mouths? In my case, you repeatedly attribute comments and opinions to me that I never made. Then you eviscerate these imaginary opinions. It's sickening and shameful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
State pensions benefit more than just Columbus, don't they? And any publicly funded jobs it created would be part of the 170K total in the metro, which- once again- is not that much higher than how many there are in the other 2-Cs. But sure.
The point is that state pension funds don't have to be headquartered in Columbus. Admittedly, given the investment in infrastructure and personnel, they likely never will be moved, but this doesn't detract from the their immense benefit to the Columbus economy.

Once again, the point isn't whether the pension funds provide a state-wide benefit. The point is that they generate a massive multiplier impact for Columbus.

As noted in earlier posts, greater Cleveland raises local taxes to pay for many local government jobs that don't exist in Greater Columbus, especially in mass transit, and not just in Cuyahoga County.

Additionally, having state legislative and administrative functions in Columbus, as well as management of the state pension funds, generates considerable private employment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Do you have links or some kind of evidence about how much local taxes pay for local state/city government jobs? And how much they do in the other 2-Cs? This is something you've haven't shown, and neither has anyone else. Columbus voted to raise its own taxes in 2009 to keep city services going during the recession, and that helped for a lot of the city's workers, and to even hire more police and fire. I would be very curious to see actual numbers on the impact of local, resident-paid taxes in relation to coverage of local government employees. You obviously have them because you are able to state definitively that Cleveland covers all of its own, and Columbus does not. Please link me if you can.
Cleveland RTA has a 1 percent sales tax compared to a 1/2 percent sales tax for COTA in Columbus. Additionally, Lake County in the Cleveland MSA has a transit tax, whereas none of the other counties in the Columbus MSA has a transit tax.

Despite your obfuscation and denial, it's patently obvious that Columbus has many thousands of state jobs largely financed by the rest of Ohio. I've documented this in previous posts.

Just the fact that almost all Ohio government pension plans are managed in Ohio is the most glaring example, a largely unknown component of the Columbus economy in addition to the large contributions made by the legislative and administrative branches of government.

You apparently want to deny that these jobs exist, or that they are financed by revenues collected state-wide.

Last edited by WRnative; 04-14-2016 at 11:24 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Columbus
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top