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Old 06-09-2015, 06:37 PM
 
Location: MPLS
1,066 posts, read 1,037,056 times
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I lived Downtown for a while and there are occasions when you're the only out and you have some homeless people with mental issues hanging out. Didn't fear for my safety, but was uncomfortable. You're much more likely to get hit by some suburbanite in an SUV not stopping for pedestrians. That's about the scariest thing there in my experience.
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Old 06-10-2015, 12:07 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
7,964 posts, read 6,897,466 times
Reputation: 6698
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Welcome to 1980.
meh. Saw nothing wrong with his post.
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Old 06-10-2015, 12:30 AM
 
7,263 posts, read 4,157,085 times
Reputation: 3694
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Welcome to 1980.
????

In 1980, Columbus still had a pretty good downtown mall. Is that what you mean?
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Old 06-10-2015, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,797 posts, read 12,820,734 times
Reputation: 5469
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
meh. Saw nothing wrong with his post.
The typical Columbus' downtown is boring, no one lives there, dead after 5pm kind of stuff. Come to Cleveland!

It gets old, especially when it has changed so much in the last 10 years.
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Old 06-10-2015, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,797 posts, read 12,820,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
????

In 1980, Columbus still had a pretty good downtown mall. Is that what you mean?
City Center didn't open until 1989 and was terrible for Downtown. The population was significantly lower then as well. It actually bottomed out between the late 1970s to mid-1980s at around 1000 or so. It's about 8x higher now.
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Old 06-10-2015, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Dublin, OH
2,359 posts, read 3,314,592 times
Reputation: 1466
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
City Center didn't open until 1989 and was terrible for Downtown. The population was significantly lower then as well. It actually bottomed out between the late 1970s to mid-1980s at around 1000 or so. It's about 8x higher now.

I worked at one of the stores in City Center while I was a student at OSU...#2 made that conveniant. Anyways, in the 90s early 00s, we were always busy...we were the Flagship Store for Abercrombie & Fitch. For years that place was busy until Tuttle Crossing, Easton, and Polaris opened up...I don't think people complained it was bad for downtown until those outer burb malls brought everyone to them

I will say it was an ugly behemoth of a building but inside was quite nice.
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Old 06-10-2015, 12:45 PM
 
7,263 posts, read 4,157,085 times
Reputation: 3694
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohioaninsc View Post
I worked at one of the stores in City Center while I was a student at OSU...#2 made that conveniant. Anyways, in the 90s early 00s, we were always busy...we were the Flagship Store for Abercrombie & Fitch. For years that place was busy until Tuttle Crossing, Easton, and Polaris opened up...I don't think people complained it was bad for downtown until those outer burb malls brought everyone to them

I will say it was an ugly behemoth of a building but inside was quite nice.
I agree that it was a nice mall and that it was gutted by Easton and Polaris. My friends who lived, worked and visited downtown Columbus enjoyed it, as did I.

I've never heard anyone except the poster here say it was "terrible for downtown." Friends of mine who live in Columbus, including German Village, lament its demise. Its closing, and the absence of a good retail environment in downtown Columbus, certainly is a negative for continued downtown residential development.

I won't get into the merits of downtown Cleveland or other Midwest cities vs. downtown Columbus. Those have been discussed in this forum before and are patently obvious to anyone who has visited these cities recently.

What is very old in this forum are unsubstantiated and sometimes ridiculously inaccurate claims such as that Columbus is safer than other major Midwest downtowns.
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Old 06-10-2015, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,797 posts, read 12,820,734 times
Reputation: 5469
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohioaninsc View Post
I worked at one of the stores in City Center while I was a student at OSU...#2 made that conveniant. Anyways, in the 90s early 00s, we were always busy...we were the Flagship Store for Abercrombie & Fitch. For years that place was busy until Tuttle Crossing, Easton, and Polaris opened up...I don't think people complained it was bad for downtown until those outer burb malls brought everyone to them

I will say it was an ugly behemoth of a building but inside was quite nice.
It was really bad for Downtown retail that wasn't inside the mall. If the goal is to have a vibrant downtown with walkable retail, restaurants and amenities, downtown malls like that are awful at promoting those things. They function just like your typical suburban mall- keep people inside and off the street. It was nice as far as malls go, but it never should've been built there.
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Old 06-10-2015, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,797 posts, read 12,820,734 times
Reputation: 5469
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
I agree that it was a nice mall and that it was gutted by Easton and Polaris. My friends who lived, worked and visited downtown Columbus enjoyed it, as did I.

I've never heard anyone except the poster here say it was "terrible for downtown." Friends of mine who live in Columbus, including German Village, lament its demise. Its closing, and the absence of a good retail environment in downtown Columbus, certainly is a negative for continued downtown residential development.

I won't get into the merits of downtown Cleveland or other Midwest cities vs. downtown Columbus. Those have been discussed in this forum before and are patently obvious to anyone who has visited these cities recently.

What is very old in this forum are unsubstantiated and sometimes ridiculously inaccurate claims such as that Columbus is safer than other major Midwest downtowns.
Except that residential development and retail across the area have grown significantly more since it was torn down than in all the years it existed. Its absence is a positive, not a negative.

I haven't seen any actual numbers presented as to the safety of Midwestern downtowns. I know that Columbus typically does not show up on the Most Dangerous Cities lists, but usually Cleveland and several other Midwest cities do. But that's for the whole city, not specifically the downtown areas. Perhaps you'd like to share your source for downtown crime in various Midwestern cities?
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:50 AM
 
7,263 posts, read 4,157,085 times
Reputation: 3694
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Except that residential development and retail across the area have grown significantly more since it was torn down than in all the years it existed. Its absence is a positive, not a negative.

I haven't seen any actual numbers presented as to the safety of Midwestern downtowns. I know that Columbus typically does not show up on the Most Dangerous Cities lists, but usually Cleveland and several other Midwest cities do. But that's for the whole city, not specifically the downtown areas. Perhaps you'd like to share your source for downtown crime in various Midwestern cities?
See post 19 for the inception of this debate about downtown safety. It was another Columbus booster's unsubstantiated claim about the relative safety of downtown Columbus that initiated this discussion.

You are correct that crime statistics for Columbus are skewed positive by the city's large suburban areas. E.g., Columbus has almost twice the population and three times the geographical area of Cleveland, so Cleveland's inner city neighborhoods more negatively impact Cleveland's overall crime statistics than do the inner city neighborhoods of Columbus. Cleveland, probably like Columbus, doesn't release separate crime statistics that I've ever seen for its various police wards, which is a shame and perhaps should be unacceptable.

As for a downtown mall, I've never heard anyone claim that Water Tower Place was bad for downtown Chicago!!!

Similarly, Cleveland's Tower City Center and Fifth St. Arcades enhance downtown livability and tourist support. It's unrealistic to expect that expensive frontage will be conducive to a robust retail presence, especially in bad weather conditions during the winter. As Cleveland's downtown population continues to mushroom, it fortunately has a significant amount of enclosed retail space still available to support the needs of the downtown population, including in the underutilized The Arcade and in the Galleria arcade in the northern area of downtown.

Store Directory :: Tower City Center :: Cleveland, OH

Store Directory :: 5th Street Arcades :: Cleveland, OH

The Arcade Cleveland

Galleria at Erieview - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This means that retailers have readily available and affordable space as the downtown population continues to expand. Cleveland's underutilized retail space will keep rents lower and encourage more retail development, thereby supporting the attractiveness of downtown as a living destination. E.g., already in downtown Cleveland, residents are well aware of very reasonable restaurants nestled in these malls that support local residents and workers much more than the tourist/downtown visitor trade. Susy's Soups and Deli in Tower City and Indies in the Fifth St. Arcades quickly come to mind as places rarely mentioned by or promoted to tourists.

One reason that retail malls originally supplanted downtown commercial centers was the preference for a weather-protected shopping environment. Even the developers of Easton Town Center have viewed the enclosed mall areas as an important factor in Easton's success. If indeed an enclosed mall is important to a suburban retail mecca, why wouldn't it be desirable in a downtown area?

A vibrant array of retail services and robust mass transit are seen as vital to a dense population center. E.g., Cleveland's Tower City Center also houses Cleveland's rail rapid transit hub. This certainly allows some persons to travel there from other rail rapid stations without utilizing a car. As the retail presence at Tower City and in the rest of downtown Cleveland grows, dowtown will become more of a retail magnet.

However, utilizing the Green Line rail rapid and a short bus ride, you can travel from the Tower City rapid transit center to the Beachwood Mall/Legacy Village northern Ohio upscale shopping mecca in 45 minutes to an hour. That's competition that downtown Cleveland retailers didn't have half a century ago, not even considering the development of the many other car-dependent suburban shopping malls.

The ultimate goal in downtown Cleveland is to once again support a department store. The former Tower City Higbee's/Dillard's location, now occupied by the Horseshoe Casino, is a logical location for such a department store, once or if the Horseshoe Casino ever builds its promised dedicated casino space. Other former downtown department store locations are now being converted to condos and apartments.

Downtown retail development is vital to downtown residential development. That's why downtown residential developers in Cleveland were ecstatic about the opening of the Heinen's at the Cleveland Trust Rotunda this year, despite downtown residents' easy access by rail rapid to the large and unique West Side Market and the long existence of Constantino's Market in the downtown Warehouse District.

Heinen's opens downtown supermarket in renovated Cleveland Trust Building (photos) | cleveland.com

- Downtown Cleveland Alliance

http://www.downtowncleveland.com/med...al_spreads.pdf

Concurrent retail and residential development are mutually dependent in any virtuous expansion of a community. Growing purchasing power fuels retail development, but retail and other amenities are vital to attracting the residents needed to grow that purchasing power.

Cleveland's current downtown residential boom likely isn't fueled only by downtown jobs, which have contracted significantly since 1970, but by the development of the PlayhouseSquare entertainment complex, Healthline bus and rail rapid connections to University Circle's superb cultural center and, for the first time in Cleveland's history, the consolidation of its three major pro sports venues, including especially its winter sports arena, in its downtown area.

PlayhouseSquare reportedly has over 30,000 subscribers to its Broadway Series and the largest Broadway touring show subscription base of any city in the U.S.

PlayhouseSquare, the downtown modern pro sports venues, the robust and extensive entertainment and dining districts, the robust mass transit services, or even the wide array of downtown residential opportunities didn't exist just four decades ago in Cleveland, as only the ancient Municipal Stadium and struggling Hanna Theatre were a major source of downtown entertainment, mass transit connections to University Circle were deficient, the Waterfront rail line and Healthline bus rapid and free downtown bus trolley routes didn't exist, Cleveland's two universities were relatively struggling, and the Market District was a nascent version of the currently robust retail and residential district.

University Circle cultural institutions have been greatly modernized, renovated and expanded in the last 40 years as well, definitely greatly enhancing the attractiveness of that cultural center both to residents and tourists.

http://www.cleveland.com/arts/index....mph_the_c.html

http://www.clevelandorchestra.com/pl...lding-history/

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/f...cia021815.aspx

http://www.cleveland.com/arts/index....art_cle_9.html

See a "Garden for the 21st Century" here:

http://www.cbgarden.org/about/histor...llapsible3link

Note that the Downtown Cleveland Alliance (see the above report) projects a downtown Cleveland population of 20,000 within five years, likely dwarfing the downtown population at any point since World War II. Cleveland largely has the retail infrastructure already in place to support this population.

Interestingly, the DCA doesn't comprehend Ohio City's Market District residential base, just across the Cuyahoga River from downtown, in its residential statistics, even though the two are closely linked. I suppose downtown residential statistics in Columbus similarly don't include German Village or Victorian Village although I'm not certain the link is quite as strong (e.g., no rail mass transit station connection). Yet Ohio City neighborhood residents, especially those in the Market District, are a source of customers for downtown Cleveland retailers. Many of those who use RTA transit to commute to work do so with monthly passes, so it's cheap and easy to shop at Tower City and other downtown locations.

The development of Cleveland State University downtown and the ascension of Case Western Reserve University and the rapid expansion of the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals main campuses in University Circle also have supported downtown development. Some health center employees, typically those without children, often live downtown or in the Market District and commute to work on the Healthline bus or rail rapids.

My perception is that enclosed downtown retail space is vital to a vibrant downtown residential community, especially in cities with winter weather conditions and/or significant rainfall and winds.

So it's too bad IMO that Columbus lost its downtown retail mall, which at its height I found very enjoyable. It wouldn't be surprising, even perhaps expected and necessary, that retail malls will once again appear in downtown Columbus if the downtown residential community continues to expand.

Last edited by WRnative; 06-11-2015 at 04:52 AM..
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