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Old 06-13-2015, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,797 posts, read 12,824,597 times
Reputation: 5469

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
I don't know what you want me to offer.My position is incredibly mild: I don't think Columbus is as greatly set up for the future because of its dependence on money that it doesn't generate and it's reliance on government employment. The region just doesn't produce anything in comparison to other metros. When state governments run out of money have to make more cuts and lay off workers with no real transferrable skills, and when other people in the state get tired of seeing their money sent to Columbus and leave, things aren't going to be as good. WHen the higher education bubble bursts, that won't be good either. I didn't say other cities wouldn't suffer too. In fact I explicitly said other cities, like where I live now, will suffer. I also didn't say "imminent", your word, not mine. Read. Could be 2 or 3 decades away, but that's how I see things unfolding. It's a prediction. This is how I see it. YOu can disagree. But please, cut the juvenile nonsense. It's tiring. Your defensiveness is quite unbecoming. I didn't say anything offensive. Relax bro.
Except again, the local economy is NOT solely based on government. It has only a few % points more government jobs than do the other 2-Cs. That number is not some ticking time bomb in comparison the way manufacturing reliance was for Rust Belt cities in the 1960s. Columbus has large amounts of jobs (100K+) in the categories of Trade/Transportation/Utilities, Professional/Business Services, Health and Leisure/Hospitality, aside from Education and Government. It also has 75,000 in Finance, and for a metro not known for manufacturing, still has over 70,000 in that category. Government isn't even the top industry. It's 3rd, and Health will overtake it at some point in the next few years, so it'll drop to 4th. And if you look at the chart from BLS, the number of government jobs in Columbus actually peaked 5 years ago and has been on a slight declining trend since. I'm not sure how this indicates an overreliance on dollars from elsewhere and that it has no economy of its own making.

Oh, and as far as all the money Columbus gets from around the state... Someone from Cincinnati posted a chart a few years back showing how many dollars went to each metro from state government to create jobs. Columbus did get a bit more money, but it also produced far more jobs at a lower price per job for every dollar spent. It was easily the best investment metro the state had, which kind of destroys the argument that Columbus is getting treated unfairly. If you wanted the greatest return on state money, it was a no-brainer. Maybe you're not an investor- I'm not- but isn't that the entire point of investment? My question was why it took so much more money to create jobs in other metros, but no one could answer it.

It's fine if you want to make predictions, but at least base them on real conditions and not imagined. There's nothing juvenile about it. It's like some people simply can't wait for Columbus' downfall, and they'll imagine any scenario in which that happens. I'm sure there's a healthy group in Cleveland, at least, who feels that way. Every time one of the "Let's break up Ohio because Columbus is stealing all our money" threads pops up, it becomes pretty obvious, and it almost always gets started from someone in NEO.
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:55 PM
 
7,274 posts, read 4,162,500 times
Reputation: 3709
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Except again, the local economy is NOT solely based on government. It has only a few % points more government jobs than do the other 2-Cs. That number is not some ticking time bomb in comparison the way manufacturing reliance was for Rust Belt cities in the 1960s. Columbus has large amounts of jobs (100K+) in the categories of Trade/Transportation/Utilities, Professional/Business Services, Health and Leisure/Hospitality, aside from Education and Government. It also has 75,000 in Finance, and for a metro not known for manufacturing, still has over 70,000 in that category.
1) What is included in government jobs? Does it include Ohio State? Does it include all of the state pension funds, which manage an immense amount of money, demand hundreds if not thousands of supporting professional jobs from outside of their direct employment? State jobs, especially the many disproportionately highly paid jobs in Columbus, have an immensely leveraging effect on other employment, somewhere between 3 to 5 times the actual employment. Anyone conversant in economics knows that state capitols and even county seats have a golden egg of an immense value. With modern digital communications, increasingly other regions, even within large counties, will demand a sharing of this golden egg. This has happened already in Washington, DC, as many operations were relocated to WV. Just think of all of the jobs created in Columbus to support state legislators, with their large expense accounts, and especially the ever mushrooming lobbyists and professional election consultants, none of whom are state employees.

2) Insurance companies have located in Columbus because it is the state capital and they are regulated there, as well as because in the days before robust communications, Columbus was centrally located in Ohio, before insurance companies became multi-state operations.

3) It's a joke to believe that Columbus doesn't get preferential treatment for state funds. The massively expensive bridge that is Short North would have never been built in any other Ohio city. Heck, the state couldn't even maintain properly the I-90 Innerbelt bridges through Cleveland, one of the most heavily traveled and vital arteries in the state. While the Kasich administration prioritized the I-71 modernization in Columbus, for years more the Innerbelt bridges through Cleveland will be reduced to half of their normal capacity, awaiting the completion of the second Innerbelt bridge. I believe I-71 through Columbus carries less traffic than I-90 through Cleveland, but, most importantly, I-71 through Columbus still functioned and was not as high a funding priority as maintaining required capacity on I-90 through Cleveland.

The Kasich administration was going to delay even further the second Innerbelt bridge through Cleveland unless the Ohio Turnpike was leveraged. Of course, because of the ever increasing tolls on the Ohio Turnpike, the northern Ohio economy will be eviscerated as it supports road construction and maintenance elsewhere in Ohio, including in Columbus.

There's nothing in Ohio more egregious than the turnpike situation.

Also egregious is the fact that Cuyahoga County, with over 10 percent of the state's population no longer has a state park. The Kasich administration neglected Cleveland's state-funded lakefront parks so badly, that the Cleveland Metroparks has been forced to divert badly needed resources to assume operation of those parks from the state? Why doesn't the Kasich administration similarly force the Columbus area metroparks to assume operational expenses of Alum Creek State Park? Why doesn't Ohio charge parking and other fees to support other Ohio state parks, which benefit disproportionately local populations? This is done in other states.

Then there are the several expensive projects in Columbus that the state has supported, most recently the Ohio Veterans Memorial and Museum. The Republicans are pushing funding for that project, even as they have gutted the arguably more important and inclusive Ohio Historical Society. Operations of the historical society have been underfunded with many sites barely open. Even the main museum in Columbus is a sorry place, especially compared to the museums in other states.

Look at the Capitol Theatre in the Vern Riffe Center. Unlike in any other Ohio city, one of the top theaters in Columbus was built and is operated by state. Why, especially when the state can't fund its park system?

I could go on. I personally enjoy Columbus and hope it prospers in coming decades.

What I can't stomach is the unfair treatment of northern Ohio. Nobody in Columbus or elsewhere in the state can claim fairness until the calamity that is the Ohio Turnpike is rectified, which likely will require turning all interstates in Ohio into toll roads or subjecting all Ohioans to a higher gasoline tax. The Ohio Turnpike was never meant to still be a toll road, let alone one with ever escalating tolls to fund road construction and maintenance elsewhere in Ohio.

If northern Ohio didn't have such Republican-leaning lame newspapers, the Republicans already would be suffering for their blatant mistreatment of northern Ohio IMO. Is it any wonder that Kasich didn't want to debate Ed Fitzgerald, the former Cuyahoga County Administrator?

Can you imagine even the Columbus Dispatch supporting a plan to levy heavy tolls on I-70 travelers and commerce to benefit free interstates elsewhere in the state? I wouldn't support that, and I can't understand how other Ohioans support the actual raping of northern Ohio. Making northern Ohio and Indiana marginal locations for manufacturing is one of the dumbest and most poor policies that I've ever seen implemented in the U.S.

Last edited by WRnative; 06-13-2015 at 01:17 PM..
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:09 PM
 
Location: cleveland
2,038 posts, read 3,396,762 times
Reputation: 1171
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Except again, the local economy is NOT solely based on government. It has only a few % points more government jobs than do the other 2-Cs. That number is not some ticking time bomb in comparison the way manufacturing reliance was for Rust Belt cities in the 1960s. Columbus has large amounts of jobs (100K+) in the categories of Trade/Transportation/Utilities, Professional/Business Services, Health and Leisure/Hospitality, aside from Education and Government. It also has 75,000 in Finance, and for a metro not known for manufacturing, still has over 70,000 in that category. Government isn't even the top industry. It's 3rd, and Health will overtake it at some point in the next few years, so it'll drop to 4th. And if you look at the chart from BLS, the number of government jobs in Columbus actually peaked 5 years ago and has been on a slight declining trend since. I'm not sure how this indicates an overreliance on dollars from elsewhere and that it has no economy of its own making.

Oh, and as far as all the money Columbus gets from around the state... Someone from Cincinnati posted a chart a few years back showing how many dollars went to each metro from state government to create jobs. Columbus did get a bit more money, but it also produced far more jobs at a lower price per job for every dollar spent. It was easily the best investment metro the state had, which kind of destroys the argument that Columbus is getting treated unfairly. If you wanted the greatest return on state money, it was a no-brainer. Maybe you're not an investor- I'm not- but isn't that the entire point of investment? My question was why it took so much more money to create jobs in other metros, but no one could answer it.

It's fine if you want to make predictions, but at least base them on real conditions and not imagined. There's nothing juvenile about it. It's like some people simply can't wait for Columbus' downfall, and they'll imagine any scenario in which that happens. I'm sure there's a healthy group in Cleveland, at least, who feels that way. Every time one of the "Let's break up Ohio because Columbus is stealing all our money" threads pops up, it becomes pretty obvious, and it almost always gets started from someone in NEO.

I don't think anyone here in NE Ohio really ever thinks of Columbus unless they have a kid at Ohio state.. Or the buckeyes are playing on a sat.. Don't flatter yourself, we know cbus is just another city that doesn't have much to offer compared to Cleveland.. On a side note, why do you constantly try to build up cbus into something its not..? Your comments are sometimes laughable to people who
know each city. Maybe that's why you constantly get called out by so many in the Ohio furum.?

Last edited by 1watertiger; 06-13-2015 at 07:11 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,797 posts, read 12,824,597 times
Reputation: 5469
Quote:
WRnative;40006313]1) What is included in government jobs?
The category includes local, state and federal positions with government. The federal positions would obviously not be part of "You're stealing all Cleveland's money!" jobs.

Quote:
Does it include Ohio State?
That would be jobs within the Education category.

Quote:
Does it include all of the state pension funds, which manage an immense
amount of money, demand hundreds if not thousands of supporting professional
jobs from outside of their direct employment? State jobs, especially the
many disproportionately highly paid jobs in Columbus, have an immensely
leveraging effect on other employment, somewhere between 3 to 5 times the actual
employment. Anyone conversant in economics knows that state capitols and
even county seats have a golden egg of an immense value. With modern
digital communications, increasingly other regions, even within large counties,
will demand a sharing of this golden egg. This has happened already in
Washington, DC, as many operations were relocated to WV. Just think of all
of the jobs created in Columbus to support state legislators, with their large
expense accounts, and especially the ever mushrooming lobbyists and professional
election consultants, none of whom are state employees.
Why exactly would this be true only for Columbus? There are 135K government jobs in Cleveland as of May. This is about 13% of the metro economy. Columbus had 165K government jobs in May, making it 16% of the metro economy. OMG, what a huge difference. This is the same %, btw, as Dayton. I don't ever see anyone complaining about how Dayton is sucking the money away from the rest of the state. Doesn't fit the narrative, I guess.

Oh, and what about the 125K manufacturing jobs in Cleveland... just what kind of state taxpayer incentives are those companies receiving to keep them in Ohio, or to add more? Is there some kind of policy I'm unaware of that only allows state tax money collected in the local area to support local incentives? Don't think so. But it's cool to try to make Columbus out to be the state's moocher because parts of Ohio haven't been able to get it together for 50 years.

Quote:
2) Insurance companies have located in Columbus because it is the state
capital and they are regulated there, as well as because in the days before
robust communications, Columbus was centrally located in Ohio, before insurance
companies became multi-state operations.
Whether true or not... And? All cities play off their strengths. Is this supposed to be a negative or something to apologize for? BTW, Nationwide is homegrown, it did not relocate.

Quote:
3) It's a joke to believe that Columbus doesn't get preferential treatment for
state funds. The massively expensive bridge that is Short North would have
never been built in any other Ohio city. Heck, the state couldn't even maintain
properly the I-90 Innerbelt bridges through Cleveland, one of the most heavily
traveled and vital arteries in the state. While the Kasich administration
prioritized the I-71 modernization in Columbus, for years more the Innerbelt
bridges through Cleveland will be reduced to half of their normal capacity,
awaiting the completion of the second Innerbelt bridge. I believe I-71 through
Columbus carries less traffic than I-90 through Cleveland, but, most
importantly, I-71 through Columbus still functioned and was not as high a
funding priority as maintaining required capacity on I-90 through Cleveland.
What massively expensive bridge to the Short North? Are you talking about the 670 Cap? The total for that project was $7.8 million. ODOT only paid $1 million of that cost, with the other $6.8 million split between the City and private developer Continental Real Estate, which actually built all the retail on top. Yeah, I'm sure no other city could pull off that.

As far as the I-71 rebuild, from what I understand, it was placed as a priority because of one of the highest accident rates in the state as well as their national highway status, not total traffic levels. But yeah, instead of being a safety issue, I'm sure Kasich just wanted to screw over Cleveland in a super duper evil plot.

So Cleveland doesn't have any good lobbyists in the Statehouse?

Quote:
The Kasich administration was going to delay even further the second Innerbelt
bridge through Cleveland unless the Ohio Turnpike was leveraged. Of course,
because of the ever increasing tolls on the Ohio Turnpike, the northern Ohio
economy will be eviscerated as it supports road construction and maintenance
elsewhere in Ohio, including in Columbus.
I-80 is, as far as I know, not owned by Cleveland and Cleveland is not entitled to all its income. Was it built only with Cleveland dollars? Are Clevelanders the only people using it? Please. Regardless, the I-71 project was originally delayed by several years at the same time the Innerbelt project was, but both ended up going forward when money became available. I don't see the issue here. You want to talk about an expensive, unnecessary cluster***k, look up the Brent Spence Bridge, or the Portsmouth Bypass.

Quote:
There's nothing in Ohio more egregious than the turnpike situation.
Yeah, I'm thinking that's not true.

Quote:
Also egregious is the fact that Cuyahoga County, with over 10 percent of the
state's population no longer has a state park. The Kasich administration
neglected Cleveland's state-funded lakefront parks so badly, that the Cleveland
Metroparks has been forced to divert badly needed resources to assume operation
of those parks from the state? Why doesn't the Kasich administration similarly
force the Columbus area metroparks to assume operational expenses of Alum Creek
State Park? Why doesn't Ohio charge parking and other fees to support other
Ohio state parks, which benefit disproportionately local populations? This is
done in other states.
To the first question... obviously another evil plot. To the second question, why not petition your elected representatives? Oh wait, maybe they're in on the plot. BTW, have you ever been to Alum Creek State Park? It's not that nice, and the water is regularly too polluted to swim safely, a pretty common problem in many of Ohio's waterways, which may actually be a more egregious situation in the state than I-80. Columbus just had to issue nitrate warnings for half the city because of farm runoff, an issue state leadership seems happy to ignore. But as you well know, Republicans are all about evil plots.

Quote:
Then there are the several expensive projects in Columbus that the state has
supported, most recently the Ohio Veterans Memorial and Museum. The Republicans
are pushing funding for that project, even as they have gutted the arguably more
important and inclusive Ohio Historical Society. Operations of the historical
society have been underfunded with many sites barely open. Even the main museum
in Columbus is a sorry place, especially compared to the museums in other
states.
Wait, the state supported that? Half of the cost is being paid for by local billionaire Les Wexner, who donated $25 million of the $50 million cost. The other half, from everything I've read, is coming from a combination of city-county sources.

The Ohio Historical Society has tentative plans to build a new center Downtown along the Scioto. Its main problem is location.

The main museum just went through $80 million in expansions. It's still completing them.

And not sure what your point is. The state pays for Columbus' museum attractions, but doesn't pay enough to make them any good?? Yay...

Quote:
Look at the Capitol Theatre in the Vern Riffe Center. Unlike in any other Ohio
city, one of the top theaters in Columbus was built and is operated by state.
Why, especially when the state can't fund its park system?
I have no idea what funds Capital, but based on your other dubious claims, I'm going to need to see a link.

Quote:
I could go on. I personally enjoy Columbus and hope it prospers in coming
decades.
Yes, because all your posts are so glowingly supportive.

Quote:
What I can't stomach is the unfair treatment of northern Ohio. Nobody in
Columbus or elsewhere in the state can claim fairness until the calamity that is
the Ohio Turnpike is rectified, which likely will require turning all
interstates in Ohio into toll roads or subjecting all Ohioans to a higher
gasoline tax. The Ohio Turnpike was never meant to still be a toll road, let
alone one with ever escalating tolls to fund road construction and maintenance
elsewhere in Ohio.
I suspect the real problem is that roads are massively wasteful in design and that there are simply way too many already. The gasoline tax, or some other form, should definitely be raised. Cleveland still doesn't own I-80, sorry.

Quote:
If northern Ohio didn't have such Republican-leaning lame newspapers, the
Republicans already would be suffering for their blatant mistreatment of
northern Ohio IMO. Is it any wonder that Kasich didn't want to debate Ed
Fitzgerald, the former Cuyahoga County Administrator?
Do you want to debate politics? I can't stand Republicans in their current form whatsoever, but this is definitely not Columbus' fault.

Quote:
Can you imagine even the Columbus Dispatch supporting a plan to levy heavy tolls
on I-70 travelers and commerce to benefit free interstates elsewhere in the
state? I wouldn't support that, and I can't understand how other Ohioans
support the actual raping of northern Ohio. Making northern Ohio and Indiana
marginal locations for manufacturing is one of the dumbest and most poor
policies that I've ever seen implemented in the U.S.
[/quote]

The Dispatch has been sold and is no longer owned by the conservative Wolfe family, though I have no idea what they would've supported because pretty much no one has seriously proposed to do any of that.
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:31 PM
 
4,262 posts, read 3,314,643 times
Reputation: 1848
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
I don't know what you want me to offer.My position is incredibly mild: I don't think Columbus is as greatly set up for the future because of its dependence on money that it doesn't generate and it's reliance on government employment. The region just doesn't produce anything in comparison to other metros. When state governments run out of money have to make more cuts and lay off workers with no real transferrable skills, and when other people in the state get tired of seeing their money sent to Columbus and leave, things aren't going to be as good. WHen the higher education bubble bursts, that won't be good either. I didn't say other cities wouldn't suffer too. In fact I explicitly said other cities, like where I live now, will suffer. I also didn't say "imminent", your word, not mine. Read. Could be 2 or 3 decades away, but that's how I see things unfolding. It's a prediction. This is how I see it. YOu can disagree. But please, cut the juvenile nonsense. It's tiring. Your defensiveness is quite unbecoming. I didn't say anything offensive. Relax bro.
He (or she) takes this forum stuff way too personally. I've called him (or her) out on this before.
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Old 06-14-2015, 12:25 PM
 
2,138 posts, read 4,641,371 times
Reputation: 3146
To answer the original question, downtown Columbus IS dangerous! Dangerously boring! HAHAHA JK, but seriously folks most Midwest downtowns are boring if there is not an event going on, and REALLY dead during the winter. But to solely focus on downtowns in areas like Columbus and CLE is doing disrespect to the AWESOME neighborhoods: Short North, German Village, Tremont, Coventry, etc. Not every place needs to/has a happening downtown.
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:59 PM
 
Location: NKY's Campbell Co.
1,821 posts, read 3,905,764 times
Reputation: 853
Hey, at least it isn't downtown Dayton? JK Dayton. We're all right.

Which is why these threads, or at least the tangents are dumb. My city is better because.... No it's not because my city....

Not a really productive thread. Agreed with YaFace though. Both have some awesome neighborhoods. Besides, isn't that where things happen? Who goes to Wall Street to hang out? Or The Loop? Downtown LA is a rather large exception and only recently has become "happening" and redeveloped. Mostly, downtown is a place to work.
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Nashville TN
4,925 posts, read 4,627,657 times
Reputation: 4778
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightflyer View Post
Hey, at least it isn't downtown Dayton? JK Dayton. We're all right.

Which is why these threads, or at least the tangents are dumb. My city is better because.... No it's not because my city....

Not a really productive thread. Agreed with YaFace though. Both have some awesome neighborhoods. Besides, isn't that where things happen? Who goes to Wall Street to hang out? Or The Loop? Downtown LA is a rather large exception and only recently has become "happening" and redeveloped. Mostly, downtown is a place to work.
Downtown Dayton is like Downtown Chicago and Downtown NYC, its a super happening place.
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Old 06-14-2015, 06:59 PM
 
Location: NKY's Campbell Co.
1,821 posts, read 3,905,764 times
Reputation: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by UKWildcat1981 View Post
Downtown Dayton is like Downtown Chicago and Downtown NYC, its a super happening place.
Did I say they were one and the same? And if you want to know, I've been to all three.

My point: Downtown tends to be a locale for work space or offices in pretty much every major metro. On occasion shopping can be found in larger ones. Think The Loop, though that tends to be short-changed by Michigan Ave. It just depends on what the market wants/supports. Some places are large enough for a vibrant downtown (aka shopping, restaurants) and others have niche neighborhoods instead. Columbus falls into the latter.

Personally, I like the neighborhood style better, but that is personal preference.
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