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And for the guy in Cleveland, would you walk from Downtown to University Circle?
Walkability greatly is a function on mass transit. Many millennials, especially in larger cities, don't want the cost and hassle of owning cars.
Cleveland is a great example. You can go from the airport, Market District (breweries), or downtown to University Circle/Little Italy on the Red Line rail rapid. University Circle has two Red Line stations.
Additionally, the 24/7 Healthline bus rapid connects downtown to University Circle using a dedicated Euclid Ave. corridor and walk-on, walk-off articulated buses. It operates with at least a 15-minute frequency most of the day, and every half hour between 11 p.m. and 4:30 a.m.
You can party in the Market District or at Warehouse District clubs, and take mass transit easily back to University Circle. It's crazy to suggest that persons would walk the entire distance, and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the concept of walkability.
There are free bus shuttles downtown that operate until 11 p.m.
Additionally, there is downtown shopping and even now a full-service supermarket, perhaps the most beautiful supermarket in the U.S., with very popular dining and even wine-tasting offerings.
Candidly, reading this thread, many of the Columbus posters don't even understand the concept of "walkability." In essence, it's the ability to live comfortably and easily without owning a car, or rarely using a vehicle if one is owned.
Posters in this thread constantly belittle Cleveland's mass transit infrastructure, claiming that it is still so woeful as to offer no meaningful advantage versus Columbus. Really???
God forbid the Legion of Gloom allows Columbus to be given credit for anything positive.
LOL!
You belittle other the mass transit capabilities of other cities in order to make the deficiencies of the Columbus mass transit system seem less onerous.
You claim that Columbus is unique because it doesn't use tax dollars to subsidize its pro sports, arguing that the proceeds from the Casino Gross Receipts tax aren't public funds. Apparently, nobody else in Columbus, certainly not the Columbus Dispatch, shares your opinion on this point.
Columbus posters on this forum ignore that average wages in Columbus are lower than in surrounding metropolitan areas.
You ridiculously call Cleveland a "depressing" pro sports town, belittling it as a pro sports town despite the fact that it, unlike Columbus, has the franchises in the three leading pro sports leagues and that's its NBA team is a title contender.
Most posters in this forum apparently have no grasp of how the cultural offerings of Columbus lag behind those in other large metropolitan areas.
Columbus has much to offer. The problem in this forum is that the posters constantly are attempting to aggrandize Columbus at the expense of other cities in the region. Then they become thin-skinned when others point out the ridiculousness of their arguments.
What you label a "Legion of Gloom" is actually a "Legion of Realists." This forum is populated by a "Legion of Delusionals," of which you are IMO a leading champion.
Here are what I see as the biggest relative positives for Columbus:
1) State capital; an immense economic driver, generating large positive multiplier effects
2) Ohio State, and associated research capabilities, such as the Battelle Memorial Institute
3) Financial center, partly a function of being the state capital (e.g., mammoth state pension funds managed from Columbus; insurance companies operate close to regulators)
4) Retail center (thanks Les Wexner) and retail shopping mecca
5) Ohio Expo Center -- e.g., State Fair and All-American Quarterhorse Congress
6) Low trucking transportation costs, especially with the Republicans instituting the "Republican Toll Road" through northern Ohio and Indiana; the trucking industry in recent decades has relocated from the I-80 corridor to the I-70 corridor
7) Very good parks, including the Columbus Zoo
The Republican Toll Road mentioned in number 6) likely actually is a negative for Columbus in the long run because when northern Ohio's economy is marginalized by the destruction of its industrial base (and the ongoing trashing of Lake Erie by inept environmental regulation), Ohio overall will become a less wealthy state with a less robust state capital. Perhaps even think Jackson, MS, several decades from now.
I'm just speaking as a millennial who has lived in some of the places considered "top millennial spots" and loves city living. Those are the places I'm looking at right now.
I couldn't say if I'm typical, but I do value walkability, character/some quirkiness/unique features, architecture, having a few really great places to eat (but not necessarily a foodie city), and somewhat of a nightlife scene (but doesn't have to be South Beach (a place I also lived and found to be a bit much)).
The vast majority of my friends living in Columbus came from either Ohio already or came from the states surrounding Ohio. Most of them are gamers, geeks, and/or into the fine arts so it works out in the sense that they have galleries there and conventions.
I didn't go to OSU so perhaps if I did I'd put it higher on the list of good places for millennials?
It's not a bad place for that and should make millennial lists on the COL and jobs factor, but I don't see it as desirable as a lot of other places for millennials.
Hell, I do have a lot of other friends who ended up moving to places just for good jobs so...
But then again I don't think a lot of people are "city" people or take the time to actually sit down and ask themselves what they want out of where they live.
Columbus...maybe if I had a family and it was ten years later I could see myself back there?
Then again, maybe not. Pittsburgh is much more my style. While the good jobs are there too they are just aren't enough of them. Plus I've already "done" Pittsburgh. Lots more exploring to do before I stick to one place.
If you take another look at my list you'll notice something that might not make other millennial's concerns: proximity and manageability.
Providence is close to Boston.
Milwaukee is close to Chicago.
Tacoma is close to Seattle.
Sacramento is close to SF.
All connected by train, are easier to get around in, and don't stretch your budget so far you can't take advantage of the stuff to do because it's all going to rent.
Richmond is the newest addition and the only one not easy to get to it's bigger area of DC (with public transportation), but as far as I'm concerned that's not really a bad thing since DC isn't my style anyway.
Both Richmond and Providence could have been bumped for Pittsburgh if I hadn't already lived in the burgh. Tacoma made the list over Portland mainly for being in Washington, which seems a lot friendlier to small business than Portland (at least from a tax standpoint).
As for the person who mentioned Louisville I think it's a good pick, but Kentucky as a whole isn't, which is why I'm personally looking at other areas first.
Jobs yes. Opportunity, not so much. We don't climb the ladder. We either do our own thing or make lateral moves that increase our quality of life.
A personal example would be Providence is likely to be a better fit for me, but I figure taking the train to Boston if I need to have an actual job would get old and the winters might become an issue (impacting quality of life). Where as in Richmond I'd likely work there (again assuming I'd need to do the 9 to 5 thing) and have slightly better weather. Although when you get right down to it everything is going to have some trade-offs.
Port Pitt, I think you are underestimating that Louisville is only KY as a technicallity. 25% of its suburbs are actually in Indiana. Louisville is nothing like the culture of eastern KY, and the area from Louisville, to Lexington, to Northern KY is a great area.
Louisville is like the "big city" version of Asheville. Much larger, more density, more urban, and more walkable areas. There is also a growing economy and some very nice looking young ladies. Anyways, if you are ever up this way for a few days, and I recommend that you spend at least 3-4 days in any city you are looking at, I would be happy to show you around.
Louisville is 1.5 hours to Indianapolis and Cincy, 2.5 hours to Nashville, and les than 5 hours to ATL and Chicago. You can take a Megabus to Chicago for less than 20 bucks round trip very often, and punch right in to the L system there.
You belittle other the mass transit capabilities of other cities in order to make the deficiencies of the Columbus mass transit system seem less onerous.
You claim that Columbus is unique because it doesn't use tax dollars to subsidize its pro sports, arguing that the proceeds from the Casino Gross Receipts tax aren't public funds. Apparently, nobody else in Columbus, certainly not the Columbus Dispatch, shares your opinion on this point.
Columbus posters on this forum ignore that average wages in Columbus are lower than in surrounding metropolitan areas.
You ridiculously call Cleveland a "depressing" pro sports town, belittling it as a pro sports town despite the fact that it, unlike Columbus, has the franchises in the three leading pro sports leagues and that's its NBA team is a title contender.
Most posters in this forum apparently have no grasp of how the cultural offerings of Columbus lag behind those in other large metropolitan areas.
Columbus has much to offer. The problem in this forum is that the posters constantly are attempting to aggrandize Columbus at the expense of other cities in the region. Then they become thin-skinned when others point out the ridiculousness of their arguments.
What you label a "Legion of Gloom" is actually a "Legion of Realists." This forum is populated by a "Legion of Delusionals," of which you are IMO a leading champion.
I never belittled Cleveland's mass transit. I spoke the truth in that it is both better than it is in Columbus, but not actually all that extensive a system in terms of rail. That's not belittling, that's stating a reality. And I said that in reference to a belief that very few US cities actually have very good, extensive rail systems, and that in the Midwest, Chicago was really the only one. And for the record, I absolutely do understand what walkability and transit is, because I live in a city that is on par with the best walkable, transit cities in the world.
The Columbus Dispatch never said it was a public tax. None of the articles or opinion columns you've provided say it was anything but a tax on the casino. People are just upset the money isn't going to other, hypothetical things.
I never ignored that, and gave a reason or two why average wages may be lower. However, I'm not actually sure how true this is. The BEA only lists per capita income, and while it only goes through 2013, Columbus is not the lowest in the region. It's above Indianapolis, Detroit and Louisville, and on par with Cincinnati. Only Cleveland and Pittsburgh are a bit higher by a few thousand.
I was also able to find average wages per metro area from May 2014 from the BLS (This appears to be the latest available). Here are some regional metro average annual wages for all occupations:
So perhaps you can be more specific on wages and what source you're using. The link above breaks down all sorts of occupations to compare, but the number I just posted is the mean. It also lists hourly. In any case, the 3-Cs were all about the same.
I have never implied or stated directly that Cleveland is not a pro sports town. It is. My only position was that, in terms of actually winning, Cleveland's pro sports scene was pretty depressing. It would be like only having the Blue Jackets, which are also, btw, pretty depressing in terms of success and a big reason why they have struggled to attract people to games. This is just an opinion. I find it a bit depressing, you don't. So be it.
Columbus also has pro sports regardless of your view on their worth.
They perhaps have "no grasp" of that because what constitutes cultural offerings is incredibly subjective. It's entirely opinion-based.
No, that's your insecurity. The Legion of Gloom is made up of people who, for whatever reason, will never be okay with Columbus receiving positive news or getting any credit for anything because they feel it threatens the reputation or attention the cities they like receive. I have no idea how that makes logical sense. No one in Columbus freaks out whenever Cleveland or Cincinnati or some other city gets some positive attention. You don't see the Cleveland forum full of Columbus posters attempting to dismiss the progress that city's made. It's entirely in one direction and you know it. Go ahead, go to the Cleveland forum right now and find all the Columbus-based posts degrading Cleveland whenever a positive story pops up. You would either have to be blind or intentionally ignorant to not see a very obvious difference.
Here are what I see as the biggest relative positives for Columbus:
1) State capital; an immense economic driver, generating large positive multiplier effects
2) Ohio State, and associated research capabilities, such as the Battelle Memorial Institute
3) Financial center, partly a function of being the state capital (e.g., mammoth state pension funds managed from Columbus; insurance companies operate close to regulators)
4) Retail center (thanks Les Wexner) and retail shopping mecca
5) Ohio Expo Center -- e.g., State Fair and All-American Quarterhorse Congress
6) Low trucking transportation costs, especially with the Republicans instituting the "Republican Toll Road" through northern Ohio and Indiana; the trucking industry in recent decades has relocated from the I-80 corridor to the I-70 corridor
7) Very good parks, including the Columbus Zoo
The Republican Toll Road mentioned in number 6) likely actually is a negative for Columbus in the long run because when northern Ohio's economy is marginalized by the destruction of its industrial base (and the ongoing trashing of Lake Erie by inept environmental regulation), Ohio overall will become a less wealthy state with a less robust state capital. Perhaps even think Jackson, MS, several decades from now.
Just a few things...
On #6, do you have any evidence or studies or anything done that suggests I-80 has been more or less abandoned by the trucking industry in favor of I-70? Just from a logical standpoint, I would've thought I-80, being a toll road, would've received less of that industry from the beginning, especially given that I-70 runs east-west and is only a few hours south. But I'd be interested to know how true this really is.
Second, the Republican leadership's disregard for water quality goes well beyond Lake Erie. How many other lakes and rivers in the state are facing pollution problems or algae blooms? Columbus' water has recently had problems related to farm runoff, the same problem that Lake Erie has. I have, so far, seen little to no move to fix this issue.
This also goes beyond the state level. There was recently a Dispatch article about the Little Scioto River, probably one of the most polluted waterways in the state and a Superfund site. Republicans in Congress have been constantly chipping away at the Superfund budget, and the cleanup of this river has been delayed years because there is not enough money. The Ohio EPA has been attempting to raise funds to clean it up for awhile, but so far, only a small section has been cleaned up.
You belittle other the mass transit capabilities of other cities in order to make the deficiencies of the Columbus mass transit system seem less onerous.
You claim that Columbus is unique because it doesn't use tax dollars to subsidize its pro sports, arguing that the proceeds from the Casino Gross Receipts tax aren't public funds. Apparently, nobody else in Columbus, certainly not the Columbus Dispatch, shares your opinion on this point.
Columbus posters on this forum ignore that average wages in Columbus are lower than in surrounding metropolitan areas.
You ridiculously call Cleveland a "depressing" pro sports town, belittling it as a pro sports town despite the fact that it, unlike Columbus, has the franchises in the three leading pro sports leagues and that's its NBA team is a title contender.
Most posters in this forum apparently have no grasp of how the cultural offerings of Columbus lag behind those in other large metropolitan areas.
Columbus has much to offer. The problem in this forum is that the posters constantly are attempting to aggrandize Columbus at the expense of other cities in the region. Then they become thin-skinned when others point out the ridiculousness of their arguments.
What you label a "Legion of Gloom" is actually a "Legion of Realists." This forum is populated by a "Legion of Delusionals," of which you are IMO a leading champion.
On #6, do you have any evidence or studies or anything done that suggests I-80 has been more or less abandoned by the trucking industry in favor of I-70? Just from a logical standpoint, I would've thought I-80, being a toll road, would've received less of that industry from the beginning, especially given that I-70 runs east-west and is only a few hours south. But I'd be interested to know how true this really is.
Second, the Republican leadership's disregard for water quality goes well beyond Lake Erie. How many other lakes and rivers in the state are facing pollution problems or algae blooms? Columbus' water has recently had problems related to farm runoff, the same problem that Lake Erie has. I have, so far, seen little to no move to fix this issue.
This also goes beyond the state level. There was recently a Dispatch article about the Little Scioto River, probably one of the most polluted waterways in the state and a Superfund site. Republicans in Congress have been constantly chipping away at the Superfund budget, and the cleanup of this river has been delayed years because there is not enough money. The Ohio EPA has been attempting to raise funds to clean it up for awhile, but so far, only a small section has been cleaned up.
Good points.. IMO both parties are inept at cleaning Ohio waterways.
I never belittled Cleveland's mass transit. I spoke the truth in that it is both better than it is in Columbus, but not actually all that extensive a system in terms of rail. That's not belittling, that's stating a reality. And I said that in reference to a belief that very few US cities actually have very good, extensive rail systems, and that in the Midwest, Chicago was really the only one. And for the record, I absolutely do understand what walkability and transit is, because I live in a city that is on par with the best walkable, transit cities in the world.
Your "truth" is not everybody's truth and, IMO, your truth often is obstinate disingenuousness. Anybody interested in your comments about mass transit can read posts 44 to 83 here. You were thumped. Readers should especially see post 83 IMO.
And it's not just you, as explained in my post 21.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
The Columbus Dispatch never said it was a public tax. None of the articles or opinion columns you've provided say it was anything but a tax on the casino. People are just upset the money isn't going to other, hypothetical things.
See post 152 in this thread about the Dispatch, as well as posts 151 and 159 and other posts on the topic here:
I guess unless the Dispatch explicitly says "public money," you will continue your charade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
I never ignored that, and gave a reason or two why average wages may be lower. However, I'm not actually sure how true this is. The BEA only lists per capita income, and while it only goes through 2013, Columbus is not the lowest in the region. It's above Indianapolis, Detroit and Louisville, and on par with Cincinnati. Only Cleveland and Pittsburgh are a bit higher by a few thousand.
I was also able to find average wages per metro area from May 2014 from the BLS (This appears to be the latest available). Here are some regional metro average annual wages for all occupations:
So perhaps you can be more specific on wages and what source you're using. The link above breaks down all sorts of occupations to compare, but the number I just posted is the mean. It also lists hourly. In any case, the 3-Cs were all about the same.
I have never implied or stated directly that Cleveland is not a pro sports town.
Another of your too frequent straw man arguments. Nobody ever said that you said that Cleveland is not a pro sports town.
Here's what you did say in post 99 of the following thread, even though the Cavaliers are arguably the best pro basketball team in the world, when healthy:
<<Let's be honest, with pro sports like Cleveland's, they hardly count as "pro".>>
My only position was that, in terms of actually winning, Cleveland's pro sports scene was pretty depressing. It would be like only having the Blue Jackets, which are also, btw, pretty depressing in terms of success and a big reason why they have struggled to attract people to games. This is just an opinion. I find it a bit depressing, you don't. So be it.
Columbus also has pro sports regardless of your view on their worth.
Your logic is that Cleveland should be depressed about contending for World Series and NBA championships, and that we shouldn't take great joy in having the major three sports franchises.
Another of your "truths." Yeah right.
If anybody wants to wade through your tortuous baloney about why Cleveland is "such a depressing sports place" can do so beginning in post 131 here:
They perhaps have "no grasp" of that because what constitutes cultural offerings is incredibly subjective. It's entirely opinion-based.
Yeah, it's your opinion, contrary to those of the experts, that the Cleveland Museum of Art is not one of the best in the U.S. and significantly above the level of the Columbus Museum of Art, that the Cleveland Orchestra is not one of the best in world, that Severance Hall arguably isn't the most beautiful concert hall in the U.S., that PlayhouseSquare is not one of the best theater complexes in the U.S., etc. Ditto, with comparisons between Columbus and Cincinnati.
You don't seem to understand that all opinions are not created equal on all subjects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
No, that's your insecurity.
??? I love it when persons losing an argument charge someone else as being insecure. Anyone reading your ridiculous comments knows the insecure individual in this argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
The Legion of Gloom is made up of people who, for whatever reason, will never be okay with Columbus receiving positive news or getting any credit for anything because they feel it threatens the reputation or attention the cities they like receive. I have no idea how that makes logical sense. No one in Columbus freaks out whenever Cleveland or Cincinnati or some other city gets some positive attention. You don't see the Cleveland forum full of Columbus posters attempting to dismiss the progress that city's made. It's entirely in one direction and you know it. Go ahead, go to the Cleveland forum right now and find all the Columbus-based posts degrading Cleveland whenever a positive story pops up. You would either have to be blind or intentionally ignorant to not see a very obvious difference.
As documented once again in my replies above, your gobbledygook rebuttal is just what I would expect from a charter member of the "League of Delusionals."
Nobody is freaking out about positive things said about Columbus. E.g., most of the time I comment in the Columbus forum because you and others say ridiculous things about Cleveland, as I've repeatedly documented, in your efforts to aggrandize Columbus. It gets very old:
1) Cleveland is a "depressing sports place" because it doesn't have a champion such as Ohio State, and its pro sports environment is inferior to Cincinnati and not much better than Columbus.
2) Cleveland's, and Cincinnati's, cultural amenities can't be judged superior to those in Columbus because their is no objective means to analyze the comparisons and it's just a matter of opinion.
Do I have it right? Regardless, it's just delusional, and I would use stronger language while laughing heartily if we were have this discussion personally.
Personally, if you and others would stop aggrandizing Columbus at the expense of other cities, you wouldn't see me and others here trying to set the record straight.
Of course, what's wrong with some posters objecting to Columbus as a destination for millennials given its amenities and attractions, relatively poor mass transit, etc.? From what I've read, most of these posters live in Columbus or are former residents.
<<On #6, do you have any evidence or studies or anything done that suggests I-80 has been more or less abandoned by the trucking industry in favor of I-70? Just from a logical standpoint, I would've thought I-80, being a toll road, would've received less of that industry from the beginning, especially given that I-70 runs east-west and is only a few hours south. But I'd be interested to know how true this really is.>>
Except the Ohio Turnpike existed before the other interstates. One example is that Roadway Services, once a major trucking company in Akron, basically was acquired by YRC, headquartered in Kansas City. The migration from I-80 to I-70 is a point that I've heard mentioned several times by Ned Hill, now a professor of public affairs at Ohio State, and a great critic of the negative economic impact of higher turnpike tolls on the northern Ohio manufacturing economy.
Second, the Republican leadership's disregard for water quality goes well beyond Lake Erie. How many other lakes and rivers in the state are facing pollution problems or algae blooms? Columbus' water has recently had problems related to farm runoff, the same problem that Lake Erie has. I have, so far, seen little to no move to fix this issue.
This also goes beyond the state level. There was recently a Dispatch article about the Little Scioto River, probably one of the most polluted waterways in the state and a Superfund site. Republicans in Congress have been constantly chipping away at the Superfund budget, and the cleanup of this river has been delayed years because there is not enough money. The Ohio EPA has been attempting to raise funds to clean it up for awhile, but so far, only a small section has been cleaned up.
Lake Erie is an integral part of northern Ohio's attractiveness. Turning it into a toxic algal sludge pit, rendering fishing impossible and beaches suspect if not unusable, goes even beyond the higher costs of treating water to make it safe for drinking and other human uses. Reportedly, each test for algal toxins costs $500, BTW. See the slide show here for the green sludge wave.
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