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Just for reference I don't define ghetto based on the color of one's skin either.
If we did compare how much of the Cleveland metro post WW2 had sidewalks trust, it would be much higher than 40%. Lets say JUST Cuyahoga county, which is 458 square miles the figure would be at or above 80%. The cities of Parma, Mentor, Beachwood, Solon, North Olmstead all have a majority sidewalk, are for the most part post WW2 and are between 10 and 25 miles away from downtown Cleveland, try that for Columbus.
Columbus hasn't faced the flee the area thing or "white flight" and "middle class flight"? Ha!! That 55 square miles of urban core you talk about is actually still loosing population. If Columbus' borders had stayed static Columbus would have shown population loss. There was also an article last spring that talked about how most central Ohioans now live outside of the I-270 loop.
I'm not trying to dog Columbus, I actually like it and hope to enjoy my time here until I graduate. But some things you said just don't jive in my opinion.
I'm from Cleveland and its real ghetto there.I was wondering if Columbus is as ghetto?
Im 19 and have been in the Columbus area with my family now for 10 years and have really grown to like it. Its been a great, great city to grow up in. The only areas to avoid late at night in my opinion would be the east side and the hilltop area. Other than that, Columbus is a great city
Thats nuts. Of course Columbus original square miles has lost population, thats gentrification you know that and we weren't talking about population. Population is not an indicator of the sucess of Columbus urban neighborhoods.
In Columbus population is not a factor that we are using to determine if we have a growing and positive innercity. Downtown (since families did not live in downtown) has seen the largest growth in population of all ohio cities.(from 03-now) www.downtowncolumbus.com And downtown is one of the weaker elements of urban columbus, what is impressive about urban columbus is the extreme healthy appearance of the neighborhoods, commerical corridor growth, and constant gentrification. That's the indicator that urban Columbus is far ahead.
We have moved beyond such simple thought and factors such as all of the neighborhood development (outside of downtown innercity neighborhoods), growing commercial corridors, and constant conversion of existing structures and extreme commerical growth along high st, in the entire inner city.
And with Columbus being pretty advanced in the gentrification game, of course, poor families are being pushed out of neighborhoods as singles, and couples move in taking over homes, townhomes, or condo conversions.
Columbus square miles are wealthy are very gentrified thats what were talking about, hence not as poor. What some consider gentrified hoods in cleveland Ohio city, are what columbus considers a work in progress (old town east.)
Unless your from mars I do now think anyone in their right mind would even dare to argue that Columbus' urban core is in worse or equal shape to Cleveland or most american cities. Columbus should be an example for how your urban neighborhoods can be turned around, and with most work done by the private sector.
It goes back to that old economy factor, Columbus' economy has been good hence, more wealth in older neighborhoods. Actually inside the city limits, not talking about Bexley. Or wait if someone says "where can i live thats great in cleveland?" where are they refered inner city SUBURBS. "Oh move to Lakewood, or Convington etcetc..." Columbus actually has safe and nearly fully gentrified innercity hoods in the city limits. Its not a city like Cleveland or Buffalo's fault of course, totally. They were large before industry collapsed and have suffered as a result.
Columbus doesn't compare it's economy to other Ohio cities anyway (not until Cincinnati's doing better lately.) Usually Indianapolis, Denver, Charlotte, Atlanta, these places we try to compete with for jobs and people.
Last edited by streetcreed; 03-07-2007 at 12:19 AM..
Again you act as if Columbus is this urban Oasis, its not. You have The short north, Victorian Village and Maybe German village. The rest is either newly built suburbia, older suburbia, or parts that are older and more rundown. Cleveland has had the highest downtown growth rate of any city in the midwest 2000-2005, the last time that specific list was compiled. It also has about 5 times as many people living in its downtown with more in line. It also has more jobs in its downtown, more restaurants, more clubs and nightlife and more shopping.
Also you act as if all of Cleveland is bad or, in keeping with the theme of this thread "ghetto". That's not true and not fair to Cleveland. The Rockefeller Park area in Glenville is filled with beautiful old mansions and mini mansions as is the West Park Neighborhood. Then there are many more safe neighborhoods spread throughout the city. As I have said the worst areas seems to be between E.55th and the East 90's between Hough and KInsman., but then again that area was left to rot 40 years ago, but is now seeing new home construction. Guess what Cleveland's mayor justunveiled a 1.5 billion dollar capital construction program that will rebuild all the neighborhoods including downtown. Are you from mars? Columbus does have inner city gentrification as do all cities, but its inner core still has lots of problems and lots of neighborhoods that are not necessarily "safe". Also people that are worried about schools in greater Cleveland are referred to the suburbs just like in Columbus or CIncinnati. People forget Cleveland has great safe urban neighborhoods, Does Columbus have anything like Shaker Square with its rail connections? What about Tower city? Also gentrification does not equal loss of population. Are you nuts? If so many people are moving in wouldn't that offset population loss in the inner core? Here's a link detailing Columbus' 1950 borders population loss. http://development.columbus.gov/Bizdevelopment/Demographics/Columbus/Colpopulationboundry.asp (broken link)
Lets just say both cities are bad and leave the argument at that.In fact most urban areas where 75% of ohions live have very bad neiborhoods in them.And about the 1.5billion dollar revitalization program in Cleveland,being from Cleveland they don't even have the type of money to turn a city around that not only is the 7th most dangerous but the poorest city in the United States.And yes Columbus is probably safer than Cleveland,but I'm sure it has more bad neiborhoods then good neiborhoods,plus Columbus is dangerous every year it has over 90 homicides,and over 12 homicides per every 100,000 people which is preety bad.But really I think all the major cities in Ohio are preety bad Cleveland,Columbus,Cincinnati,Dayton,Toledo,and Akron.And most cities in the mid west are preety bad too Detroit,Milwaukee,parts of Chicago,parts of Indianapolis,Minneapolis,and St. Louis just to name a few.I mean right now the Mid West is lagging behind everyone else and the crime here is increasing at a faster pace here than the rest of the United States.
I agree that both cities have their bad areas and their good ones.
If you look at the Cleveland development threads I started, you'll see that Cleveland in fact does have most of the money it needs to do the project and the rest will be given from the feds.
While Cleveland does have a poverty problem like alot of other cities, those rankings are frivolous. The way they are done makes them fairly inaccurate and don't represent everything fully. For example they include College students in college who may not have jobs as they are only going to school. On paper they are poor, but in reality mommy and daddy may be supporting them. Crime is on the increase across the nation. Some of the worst are in the midwest, but also are cities like Atlanta, Dallas and Philly.
Yes other cities do have thier problems but Cleveland is in both the most dangerous top ten 7th and the most poverty #1.Plus Cleveland has been going down hill for years ever since forced busing started.You can clearly see the blight.Drive down St. Clair or other major streets.There is no buisness.All of the buildings are vacant and boarded up.The only nice neghborhoods in the actual city of Cleveland are the far far west side and I even saw alot of blight over there.Yes Cleveland has some really nice suburbs but the actual city may be the worst in the country.And on Columbus,I think it is a bad city just probably not on the leval Cleveland is on.
Ctown native do you know what you're talking about at all? Cleveland has more than just those west side 'hoods that are nice, there is definitely work to do, but come on. Have you ever been to Shaker Square? Have you ever been to Columbus? You don't even live in Cleveland anymore do you?
Every time I hear someone talking about the nice neighborhoods in cleveland the only one I ever hear any one talk about is Shaker Square and that is just one neighborhood in Cleveland.Let me ask you something too.Do you live in Cleveland and have you ever been to Columbus and if you have been there how many times have you been there.Last time I was out in Cleveland,early January of 2007 all of the neighborhoods I drove through looked really bad.Some of the neighborhoods I drove through were Saint Clair,Kinsman,Buckeye-Woodland,W.160th or the far west side,E.55th,and East Cleveland.Plus I was in my old town Euclid alot and it is starting to face the same problems that Cleveland already has.I've only been away from Cleveland for about 2years and every time I Have been back there since 3times it gets worse each time.Oh yeah also Lakeshore Blvd. in Cleveland and Euclid is bad,185thstreet,200thstreet,Nottingham,Euclid avenue.And earlier when I siad I had been by W.160th guess what that is the far west siad of Cleveland and that area looked pretty crummy to me.Yes it did look better than all the East side neighborhoods but it was still bad.And in police district number one that was the 2cd most dangerous area.The safest area was police district #3.That includes downtown and Shaker Square in it.But even that police district wasn't all that safe and Shaker Square may be a fairly safe area in Cleveland but it is also surrounded by some of the worst areas in Cleveland too.
The third district includes Downtown, Central, Goodrich-Kirtland Park, North Broadway and South Broadway. Shaker Square is in the 5th district and is nowhere near Downtown. The worst part of the third is the central area bordering S. Hough and Fairfax like I mentioned before.Also Shaker square isn't surrounded by one of the worst areas. Larchmere/Buckeye just north is doing good with retail in its store fronts and new condos getting built. Also Shaker Heights to East is not bad especially since its the "good" part of Shaker. Also along the Rapid line leading to the square has tons of nice apartments and condos and is not near as bad as Central.
As far as nice neighborhoods in Cleveland,
how 'bout:
Shaker Square
West Park
Little Italy
Downtown (Warehouse district, Gateway, Flats not to mention all the new projects that will add 10,000 new residents down there, while creating new neighborhoods)
Ohio City
Tremont.
Rockefeller Park (east of the Park those nice huge old homes)
There are others that may not be as nice, but are not crime ridden hell holes either. They have problems, but not what you are making them out to be.
Kinsman looks bad until you get to MLK JR Dr. after that it has some vacant lots and abandonments, but you do realized its undergoing a revitalization project (east of MLK) that has put in new sidewalks in some areas and is helping restore the store fronts there.
185th isn't bad that bad, not sure where you're getting that. St clair between 105th and 152nd isn't much to look at now with some abondoments and some vacant lots. But that area and all of Glenville is about to see huge gentrification with many condo projects includeing one by Lebron getting built or nearing the construction phase. Also not sure if you are aware Euclid Avenue is undergoing a $200 million dollar project that will install a new transit line down the middle of it. Not to mention even more hotels, condos, apartments and restoration of those nice huge old homes in Glenville.
All said there are $2.5 Billion in projects under construction right now, with another $2.5 Billion more planned. I understand that some ares of Cleveland look crappy as hell now, but in the grander scheme of things that won't last for that much longer, especially when you consider some places have been in decline for 50 years.
About me. I lived in the Lee-Harvard, Mt Pleasant and Glenville neighborhoods in Cleveland as well as Cleveland Heights and even Richmond Heights for a while. When I graduated HS I went ot the University of Cincinnati for 1.5 years, hated it and transferred to Ohio State in Columbus where I have been in school for about a year. I plan to go back to Cleveland full time when I graduate in about a year and a half. So I've lived in all of Ohio's three Cs.
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