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Old 03-11-2011, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Barrington, IL area
1,594 posts, read 2,550,167 times
Reputation: 4937

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
It boggles my mind that Apple has not come out with a $600 laptop yet.

My god, just release a laptop from last year or two years ago and price it at $600. Then I think Apple would really make a dent in the computer market.
Apple doesn't recycle last year's technology that most other companies do. They invent this year's technology. That's why people buy Apple.
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Old 03-11-2011, 04:30 PM
 
Location: MO Ozarkian in NE Hoosierana
4,679 posts, read 10,648,375 times
Reputation: 6878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
That's my whole issue though.
The average consumer doesn't kow that.

It boggles my mind that Apple has not come out with a $600 laptop yet.

My god, just release a laptop from last year or two years ago and price it at $600. Then I think Apple would really make a dent in the computer market.

I am not a huge Apple fan, but I would LOVE to see competition in the market place. Apple prices itself out of that with the cheapest laptop being $1,000.
To much to get the average consumer to switch.
Unfortunately, it seems that you are missing the point... "value" is NOT having a device that sells cheaper; value is NOT price (neither is cost). Value is all of the tangibles + intangibles that combined provide each different individual something of worth for the price that they paid. Just quickly, a few of these tangibles + intangibles could be: Price, Hardware, Software, Service, Quality, Feel, Time, Look, Perception, etc... Example, I'm the quality manager for a company that has one main competitor, and a few other players. Some of our products are higher priced, and even though the competitor's products may meet the same specifications as our products [the tangibles], customers come back to us due to the intangibles,,, such as Service, Support, Quality, etc.

Now, with that all said, yea, durn right yes, I'd love for Apple to have lower prices too,,, esp. such as a non-all-in-one consumer desktop priced less than $1500.
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:46 PM
 
3,743 posts, read 10,944,965 times
Reputation: 2739
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
I reread what I wrote, and it came out all wrong. My bad.

Macs have a load of (fairly good) software loaded onto it. And many use the software to justify the price of macs. But the reality is, most of the software on macs goes unused and shouldn't be considered part of the value. It's great for the minority that realizes how good it is and uses it for it's intended special purposes. But that is the minority.
I don't think I'd say it goes unused. Also as a catch all, a bit on the software Apple includes on computers. Remember, when Apple started with many of these applications, there were no versions of these generally available and free/inexpensive for the consumer. That's changed over time as is the norm - Apple does something and the industry follows.

I won't go into the details too much, but for anyone who has pulled a Mac out of the box vs a PC, the user experience is very different from the get go. There is a program designed on the Mac that walks you through setting it up. It takes about 15 minutes imo, and then that's it - it will run forever. Usually with a PC, the first hours are spent removing the trial software and loading the random printer driver, etc. Its a different experience.

At any rate...

Safari
Mail
Address Book
iCal
Notes
TextEdit
Preview
iTunes
iPhoto
iMovie
iDVD
GarageBand
KeyChain
Time Machine
Font Book
Podast Capture
App Store

And other utility apps less common in use.

Most Mac users use Safari, Mail, iCal, iPhoto, iTunes, Time Machine, Keychain, and most importantly, Expose.

One of the nice things about these programs is how they are integrated. In Mail you can create a note, copy a date into iCal for a new event, take an event in iCal, and mail it out. in iPhoto or iDVD you can pull songs from your iTunes, send them out to Mail, etc. More than the fact that you can is how seamlessly they work. Its a benefit of an end-to-end design that is tested and focused on.
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:57 PM
 
3,743 posts, read 10,944,965 times
Reputation: 2739
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramirez2012 View Post
Apple doesn't recycle last year's technology that most other companies do. They invent this year's technology. That's why people buy Apple.
Its funny you mentioned that - Apple keeps this mantra from Alan Kay, back in 1971 to this day - "the best way to predict the future is to invent it." You can find it in the OS today.
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Old 03-11-2011, 07:15 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,174,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayantsi View Post
Its funny you mentioned that - Apple keeps this mantra from Alan Kay, back in 1971 to this day - "the best way to predict the future is to invent it." You can find it in the OS today.
I like the Wayne Gretsky quote better.
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,188 posts, read 21,771,324 times
Reputation: 6116
I didn't bother to read this entire thread before posting this, so please excuse me if this has already been brought to attention.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
PC Computers are better: more software available, less expensive, almost all hardware works with windows, more power/$, more memory/$, the world runs PCs, more 3rd party suppliers -> more competition - > lower prices and more selection.

Macs are too popular to be a cult but only around 10% of people use them.
Macs have come a long way since the the 90s. In fact, Macs, for the last five years or so since going Intel, can legitimately run Windows XP, Vista, or 7. I'm talking about actually booting into into Windows from its own partition on the drive, not running it virtually (although that is an option, too). Macs are the only computers that can natively run Windows programs/software, Linux, and Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Used to be humorous on the video forum I'm a member of reading posts for those on the Mac platform struggling with simple tasks. That's not say Mac doesn't have these capabilities, there's some great video tools for the Mac like Final Cut Pro but that's some major cash. I'm talking about free stuff.
What is humorous is that Macintosh IIs were the first consumer computers to use specific nonlinear editing software (Avid/1), and, since then, Macs have helped push the envelope in video editing. I went to school for film in the late 90s. All the computers used for editing were Macs. They still are today.

FCP is the shtiz and unless you are buying Studio, it is pretty cheap (actually FCP Studio is darn cheap considering its power and what can be down with it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavaturaccioli View Post
I'm thinking of dabbling in web design and plan to buy Dreamweaver. Who thinks putting it on a Mac is a bad idea? Anyone?
Adobe owes its existence to Apple since their products were first only available on the Apple platform (just like MS Word, go figure) for years before they went "PC". Dreamweaver is awesome on a Windows-based computer, but it performs "at home" on a Mac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
It boggles my mind that Apple has not come out with a $600 laptop yet.

My god, just release a laptop from last year or two years ago and price it at $600. Then I think Apple would really make a dent in the computer market.

I am not a huge Apple fan, but I would LOVE to see competition in the market place. Apple prices itself out of that with the cheapest laptop being $1,000.
To much to get the average consumer to switch.
Ugh. This is the topic that those not in the know do not know. Even though a $600 Mac laptop will sell extremely well, it will do so at the expense of the higher-end models. Agree with it or not, but the bottom line is that Apple does not want to sell a stripped-down version of their own computer when that said computer will be in direct competition with its (their) own line. And, as sales show, they don't have to.
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,188 posts, read 21,771,324 times
Reputation: 6116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Penguin View Post
Just so you're clear, a Mac IS a PC - PC stands for Personal Computer, and a Mac falls within that category.

And for the comparison:

Most of Apple's products are overpriced, Macs included. You could buy a mac with the exact same hardware specs for several hundred more than a standard PC that you could buy from a different manufacturer/build yourself. This is because Apple gears their products at computer illiterates, and they know that computer illiterates will shell out tons for something with the information that Apple is deluding them with.
Ugh, it has been proven numerous times (even from "PC" magazines) since 2004, but more particular-since Mac went Intel, that if you compare a similar-spec'd PC(s) with a Mac, the price is within the same range (+/- $100 or so).

Now, the key is similar specs. Most of you that do spec comparisons are totally missing the boat. What you are essentially doing is saying that a plum is a fruit, a banana is a fruit, so therefore they are both fruits and the same. Looking at a PC with the same HD capacity, gigs of RAM, and a high-def screen is not enough.

You need to compare deeper: FSB, CPU speed + L2 and L3 cache, memory speed, number of ports + types of ports, GPU, etc., etc. That is what these magazines did, which of course are available for view online, and why similar spec'd systems also have a similar price.

Apple didn't begin the Switch campaign until 2002. It worked, for the most part, in particular because of the "cool" aspect of owning a Mac. Macs were mysterious, and cool, and used by cool graphic designers and video/film makers.

But, the Switch campaign didn't do so well because, well, Macs were a little too different (being based on the PowerPC [RISC] architecture and all), costs too much money for the average user (3rd party peripherals and hardware branded Mac were 2x, 3x more than the same thing branded as PC).

However, in 2006, all this changed. Despite what some of the more ignorant PCs are better! don't seem to understand is that Macs are now PCs. The architecture is the same (which is why you can natively run Windows on a Mac and why OSX can be hacked with minimal effort to work on a PC).

Most Mac users are long-time users. We have been using Macs pre-Intel and don't use them because we are computer illiterate. We use them because we prefer the platform. I am not a Windows-hater, but I dislike Windows enough to not desire it as my main OS. A good amount of PC-user-to-Mac that you see, or hear, at the Apple store are looking into Macs because of the "ease of use". And, if PCs were so superior, why is the OS so darn finicky? People switch because they do not like Windows, find it frustrating, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanathos View Post
But that's because you're a graphic designer. Most graphic designers are Applebots because that's what they cut their teeth on back when Apples truly made better products for that niche with their Truecolor. These days, that advantage is gone, but Applebots such as yourself still insist it's real.

Most tech-savvy people don't have a problem with people who like Apples. It's the whole "A fool and his money are soon parted" thing. The problem is with the ones (such as yourself) who insist against all fact, reason, logic, and reality that you've actually gotten something extra for your money or that your purchase is somehow justified. You're the same types of people who buy Tuscan milk off Amazon (look it up).
I suppose that is how I became an Applebot, too, if you want to call me that. I continue to use Macs because I am just used to them and used to OSX, but also because I am used to FCP. It doesn't matter if there is a better Windows-based program for this task. I like FCP, I prefer to use FCP. It's my choice. I also like using firewire for data/video transfer, which, is not a very popular input with the PC world, but Macaddicts love.

I agree that Macs are expensive. I don't like paying that much money for a computer, but I disagree with your "a fool and his money..." analogy. To be honest, I do not understand why people like you care what I spend my money on. I mean, it is not your money. It is not our money. It is my money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanathos View Post
The reason 99% of people buy computers as opposed to building them is because they don't realize how simple it is.
I agree that most do not know how simply it is, but I would add that most are afraid of messing something up. Setting up BIOS alone is enough to keep most at bay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanathos View Post
Sure, the machine isn't the most reliable on the planet, but your 700 dollar Dell has similar specs to your $2500 Apple. The machines are essentially disposable. They'll last you a couple of years and then you buy another one. Meanwhile, you've got to try and nurse your Apple for 7 years to achieve the same value.
What?

First you say that the Dell is a good value, then you turn around and say that it isn't reliable?

Also, no, the $700 dell does not have the same specs as the $2500 Apple.

And, no, you do not need to nurse your Apple to get 7 years out of it. My 2003 MDD is still up and running just fine. Original HD, too. It's been put through some serious usage, too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
I know you want to make it seem like the PC costs as much as a Mac, but the truth is that you can have a complete set of parts ordered as a bare bones kit in 15 minutes online from several outlets. I put one together recently in less than an hour.
Yes, you can build a PC for less costs than purchasing a Mac, but the funny thing, is that you can also build a PC for less costs than buying [most] PCs.

Funny you PC heads never admit to that (unless it is on a gaming forum) unless the topic is Mac vs. PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanathos View Post
A first timer is only a first timer once. You didn't hit the freeway the first time you learned how to drive.
I did. My high school driving instructor took us on the freeway on the first day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanathos View Post
Because it's his first time actually assembling one. He has an A+ certification already (which goes to show how easy it is to become a PC repair tech and how they aren't worth 50 bucks an hour).
Thanks for the tip. No need for adults to work in tech/repair, then, eh? Not a good way to promote your own field, is it, and isn't it also an admission that PC users are ignorant?
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:03 AM
 
Location: USA
700 posts, read 953,873 times
Reputation: 648
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanathos View Post
... I'm a Harley man myself, but I certainly don't begrudge a RUB who slides up next to me on a BMW or a kid on a crotch rocket. The Apple vs. PC argument doesn't have that benefit. One provides value, one doesn't. One is for lemmings and the Cult of Steve, one is not.....
Whoa ... you are the last person I would have pegged as a Harley guy.

Everything you have said against Apple products and the people who like them (i.e. overpriced, underperforming, applebots, etc...) are the same criticisms leveled against Harleys and its cult-like following. Oh, the irony ....

Harley Davidson = Apple
Japanese Big Four = Windows Clones

Don't get me wrong. I've ridden enough Harleys to know that I want one for myself soon. Probably one of the VRSC (V-Rod) bikes. I've had rice burners, an old BMW boxer twin and I liked them all. But, there's something about a Harley that I really like. Something visceral. It's not just one thing ... it's the overall package: the sound, the styling, the chrome, ... I really can't say what it is.

Every logical cell in my head says stick with a Japanese (or European bike). For a much cheaper price, I can get a Japanese bike that beats the crap out of any Harley in price, performance, reliability, etc... (Sort of like a Windows clone vs. a Mac). For the Harley to even come close, you'd have to go the Screaming Eagle route. Then that's probably only good for drag racing. Forget about beating the rice burners in canyon carving. They had Buell, which is a very nice ride, and promptly blew it.

Still, since I'm older now and not into speed as much as I used to be, I'd prefer a Harley sitting in my garage when I'm going for a ride.

Sorry for going way off topic here.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:30 AM
 
3,743 posts, read 10,944,965 times
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I'd say Apple is like a Japanese bike - cutting edge technology, reliability, performance, vs more of the build your own mentality that exists with HD and customization. Japanese bikes utilize technology that HD generally does not, or introduces much later - like they say, if you want a modern HD, buy a Japanese bike. Fuel injection, disk brakes, ABS, "automatic" transmissions, LEDS, etc. Japanese bikes are about getting modern technology anyway while HDs are more about staying true to a tried and true method, but not necessarily being ahead of the game.

And in terms of the original question, the biggest "significance" between Apple and everything else is that "it just works". Look back over these myriad pages, and everything screams that while the Apple product "just works", the PC is all about "making it work", even if you do get to customize everything and save a few bucks.
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:15 PM
 
Location: USA
700 posts, read 953,873 times
Reputation: 648
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayantsi View Post
I'd say Apple is like a Japanese bike - cutting edge technology, reliability, performance, vs more of the build your own mentality that exists with HD and customization. Japanese bikes utilize technology that HD generally does not, or introduces much later - like they say, if you want a modern HD, buy a Japanese bike. Fuel injection, disk brakes, ABS, "automatic" transmissions, LEDS, etc. Japanese bikes are about getting modern technology anyway while HDs are more about staying true to a tried and true method, but not necessarily being ahead of the game.

And in terms of the original question, the biggest "significance" between Apple and everything else is that "it just works". Look back over these myriad pages, and everything screams that while the Apple product "just works", the PC is all about "making it work", even if you do get to customize everything and save a few bucks.
I agree with you on the reliability and even performance angle. "Cutting edge Design", sure. Definitely. On the "cutting edge" Technology,... not so much, as you can see hardware technologies available on the PC platform, but currently not on the Mac/Iphone/Ipad, like BluRay. Not that they can't do it. They just don't want to, for whatever reason.

Apple is an early adopter of the latest technologies. They usually commercialize first, before anyone else. Even if they didn't invent it, they implement newer technologies ahead of other manufacturers (i.e. the mouse, 3.5 floppy, trackpad, wristrest on laptops, etc... now Thunderbolt from Intel/Apple). Then everybody copies their implementation.

Personally, I think hardware-wise, Apple is not on the cutting-edge. If they ever are, it's only for a couple of months before other manufacturers copy, then surpass them. That's just the nature of the beast. Software-wise, yes, I prefer their Apple's OSX to Windows. Probably because I like the reliability, security and scalability of Unix.

By the way, I've never heard or read: "if you want a modern HD, buy a Japanese bike". They have a totally different market. HD is not really going after the race-replica/crotch-rocket crowd. Not seriously anyway. They tried to do that half-heartedly by initially buying Buell, but gave that up. Too quickly, in my opinion.

If anything, the Japanes big four are constantly trying to grab market share in the USA by offering their version of that most "American" bike, the Cruiser. Just take a gander at how many cruiser-like models they have.
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