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Old 02-15-2011, 01:43 PM
 
3,743 posts, read 10,936,729 times
Reputation: 2739

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Well, I say they are better to use, actually using both types daily. Every little thing "just works better", but I can't quantify that for you, I could bore you to death with anecdotal evidence, but you'd brush that aside as you don't want to hear it. You are looking at my auto analogy in one way when I was thinking of it in another - its more than the parts that are screwed together, its the engineering, testing, and quality standards. Think of it more like Toyota and Camry may use the same parts suppliers, but to different effect.

Millions of people buy Macs, even if the market share percentage is small - I don't think you can use that as a proper gauge. I think its too simple to say people buy them because they are shiny - I for one know I didn't. For anyone asking such a basic question as "which is better" like the OP, they deserve a better answer than whats been given so far.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,346 posts, read 80,810,264 times
Reputation: 17412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayantsi View Post
For anyone asking such a basic question as "which is better" like the OP, they deserve a better answer than whats been given so far.

I think my response in post two was a good, objective response.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
PC Computers are better: more software available, less expensive, almost all hardware works with windows, more power/$, more memory/$, the world runs PCs, more 3rd party suppliers -> more competition - > lower prices and more selection.

Macs are too popular to be a cult but only around 10% of people use them.
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:06 PM
 
14,777 posts, read 34,537,960 times
Reputation: 14278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayantsi View Post
Well, I say they are better to use, actually using both types daily. Every little thing "just works better", but I can't quantify that for you, I could bore you to death with anecdotal evidence, but you'd brush that aside as you don't want to hear it. You are looking at my auto analogy in one way when I was thinking of it in another - its more than the parts that are screwed together, its the engineering, testing, and quality standards. Think of it more like Toyota and Camry may use the same parts suppliers, but to different effect.

Millions of people buy Macs, even if the market share percentage is small - I don't think you can use that as a proper gauge. I think its too simple to say people buy them because they are shiny - I for one know I didn't. For anyone asking such a basic question as "which is better" like the OP, they deserve a better answer than whats been given so far.
I don't have any problem with anyone stating or asserting that they buy Mac's because they prefer them, find them to work well for their needs and are a quality product. What I do take issue with is the blanket assertion of some posters that they are "better" without qualifying that statement in anyway. Better implies measurable superiority. So, better for you = fine, better period = not fine.

I generally approach this topic when I am asked by anyone by first asking what they want to use the computer for. Assuming that like the vast majority all they want to do is surf the web, pay their bills and send some e-mail, I pretty much tell them to try both and see which one they prefer using. However, I caution them that unless they find their experience on the Mac to be vastly better than on the PC, than they really need to consider whether the price premium is worth it.
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,442,924 times
Reputation: 7702
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
RayinAK and KaaBoom...

We've thrown barbs back and forth about this before, but maybe we can try and keep it civilized this time (mensa and Tek, get more popcorn and beer, lol).

You both state that the cost differential between a PC and Mac is either negligible or that "high quality" PC's cost as much as a Mac. I would like to know what exactly defines "high quality"? Is it based on components? How those components are put together?
Yes, and yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I can laboriously list the MSRP of various PC's vs. their Mac counterpart to prove that there is a large price difference, however those often get dismissed. So, what makes a Mac with the exact same hardware as a PC more "high quality". What justifies the increased price?
OK, I'll play with you. Go ahead and list the MSRP for any PC counterparts you can find of the following.

Rules: 1. it has to be readily available for sale, online or in stores. 2. It has to be a brand name that most people have heard of. (vaporware from no name companies doesn't count). 3. Similar quality, exact same or better specs and materials. 4. Equivalent basic software bundle, needed to operate the computer. Including anti-virus software needed to keep the computer running in a usable fashion.

OK, lets see what Walmart quality crap you can find to prove that there is a large price difference:


1. Mac mini 2.4GHz : 320GB
2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB memory
320GB hard drive1
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 320M graphics
Mac OS X Snow Leopard
Ships: Within 24hrs
Free Shipping
$699.00

2. MacBook Air 11-inch : 64GB
1.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor
2GB memory
64GB flash storage
NVIDIA GeForce 320M graphics
Ships: Within 24hrs
Free Shipping
$999.00

3. MacBook 13-inch
2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR3 memory
250GB hard drive1
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 320M graphics
Built-in 10-hour battery2
Polycarbonate unibody enclosure
Ships: Within 24hrs
Free Shipping
$999.00

4. MacBook Pro 15-inch:
2.66GHz Intel Core i7
4GB DDR3 memory
500GB hard drive
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce GT 330M with 512MB
Built-in 8-9 hour battery
Aluminum unibody enclosure.
Ships: Within 24hrs
Free Shipping
$2,199.00

5. iMac 27-inch: 3.2GHz
3.2GHz Intel Core i3
2560-by-1440 resolution
4GB memory
1TB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
ATI Radeon HD 5670 with 512MB
Ships: Within 24hrs
Free Shipping
$1,699.00

6. Mac Pro 12-Core
Two 2.66GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon “Westmere” processors
6GB memory
1TB hard drive
18x double-layer SuperDrive
ATI Radeon HD 5770 with 1GB GDDR5
Ships: 2-4 business days
Free Shipping
$4,999.00
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:23 PM
 
3,743 posts, read 10,936,729 times
Reputation: 2739
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I don't have any problem with anyone stating or asserting that they buy Mac's because they prefer them, find them to work well for their needs and are a quality product. What I do take issue with is the blanket assertion of some posters that they are "better" without qualifying that statement in anyway. Better implies measurable superiority. So, better for you = fine, better period = not fine.

I generally approach this topic when I am asked by anyone by first asking what they want to use the computer for. Assuming that like the vast majority all they want to do is surf the web, pay their bills and send some e-mail, I pretty much tell them to try both and see which one they prefer using. However, I caution them that unless they find their experience on the Mac to be vastly better than on the PC, than they really need to consider whether the price premium is worth it.
Okay, here is one concrete example I thought of.

I use Synaptics for my PC touchpad. It allows me to customize the trackpad buttons for ergonomics and use gestures to control the mouse (great app overall). Its not built into the Windows OS, but its a great standalone, like is normal for a Windows PC. It works on a 2" touchpad with four buttons and allows me to use the trackpad "sideways" so I'm not tweaking my wrist all day. This is a case of poor physical design and OS design. On other laptops, I have had similar issues with the tracking characteristics - the tracking can be inconsistent, you need to keep in mind where your fingers are to use the scrolling capabilities, etc.

Also, Synaptics will sometimes crash when I open the computer from sleep. I don't really care where the issue lies, it happens, clean reinstall couldn't fix it, causing a small inconvenience. I have a shortcut to restart it when it happens.

Now, with the Mac, the touchpad is much larger in size so I can run the mouse with less pickup, there's multi-touch from Apple directly, and the whole thing is a multi-use button. I don't have to worry about where my fingers are on the track pad to do things like scroll or double-click, my hand orientation to hit critical buttons, tracking works better, and nothing has ever crashed. This is one example of both better physical design, better integration of systems, less hassle to me.

The Apple comes out of the box with more functionality and reliability. When you have to piece together things to get to that, you inevitably run up costs (3rd party software) and lessen reliability (3rd party clash that doesn't get tested).

When Synaptics stops working on my PC I know how to resolve the issue in seconds, but originally it took some time to try and fix it, hours for a reinstall over one rather insignificant issue, and an eventual home made workaround. I see the value in not having to put up with that, and lots of other little things like that.

Beyond that, simply using a larger track pad without a rigid orientation has health benefits as its more ergonomic. There is more thought put into daily use and what people call workflow than with your basic PC.

I was also thinking about the car analogy. Another analogy might be a Camry vs Lexus ES. They are for anyone that doesn't know, the same basic car. Under the skin, same components, suppliers, etc. The Camry can even be priced on par with an ES, but the Lexus has inherent value that you pay for and may not see up front. Of course, some people just see them as basically the same and would never buy an ES when the same basic car can be had without some bells and whistles for less money - they don't recognize or don't care about the inherent value in things like a nice service center, better materials vs good enough, high focus on customer service, valet service, etc.

Last edited by ShadowCaver; 03-10-2011 at 08:16 PM..
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:14 PM
 
14,777 posts, read 34,537,960 times
Reputation: 14278
Quote:
1. Mac mini 2.4GHz : 320GB
2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB memory
320GB hard drive1
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 320M graphics
Mac OS X Snow Leopard
Ships: Within 24hrs
Free Shipping
$699.00
Dell Vostro 230
Core 2 Duo E7500 (2.93GHz)
2GB RAM
250GB hard drive
Intel GMA x4500 integrated graphics.
16x dual layer DVD (+/-RW) drive.
Windows 7 Professional

$399.99 on sale, for a $300 savings.
$499.99 regularly for a $200 savings.

Quote:
2. MacBook Air 11-inch : 64GB
1.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor
2GB memory
64GB flash storage
NVIDIA GeForce 320M graphics
Ships: Within 24hrs
Free Shipping
$999.00
Asus UL30A-X5K
1.3 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB RAM
500GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 320M graphics.
Windows 7 Home

$579 for a savings of $420.

Quote:
3. MacBook 13-inch
2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR3 memory
250GB hard drive1
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 320M graphics
Built-in 10-hour battery2
Polycarbonate unibody enclosure
Ships: Within 24hrs
Free Shipping
$999.00
Toshiba Satellite L640-ST2N01
14" screen.
2.53GHz Intel Core i3 380M
4GB RAM
500GB hard drive
16x DVD drive.
Intel Mobile HD graphics.

$649 for a savings of $350.

Quote:
4. MacBook Pro 15-inch:
2.66GHz Intel Core i7
4GB DDR3 memory
500GB hard drive
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce GT 330M with 512MB
Built-in 8-9 hour battery
Aluminum unibody enclosure.
Ships: Within 24hrs
Free Shipping
$2,199.00
Toshiba Tecra A11-S3541
2.8GHz Core i7
4GB RAM
500GB hard drive
NVIDIA 512MB GDDR3 graphics.
16x DVD drive.

$1,349 for a savings of $850.

However, if I really wanted to kick it in, I could go with a Satellite A660-BT2G25 with the new i7-740QM, that is rated at a lower GHz, but offers similar performance, with better graphics and a larger hard drive for $999 for a $1,200 savings. However, I am trying to match spec for spec as much as I can.

Quote:
5. iMac 27-inch: 3.2GHz
3.2GHz Intel Core i3
2560-by-1440 resolution
4GB memory
1TB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
ATI Radeon HD 5670 with 512MB
Ships: Within 24hrs
Free Shipping
$1,699.00
Well, this one is rather tough. First off, you aren't going to get an all-in-one PC with a 27" screen. The closest I could get is 24"

Asus ET2400IT-B011E
Intel Core i3 550 3.2GHz
4GB Ram
1TB hard drive
DVD burner
Intel GMA HD graphics (obviously not as good)

$879 for a savings of $820. However, we have worse graphics and a smaller 24" screen.

If we unbundle the need for an all-in-one we can get a superior PC hardware wise and a 27" monitor added on for less:

HP Pavillion Elite
Core i5 650 3.2 GHz
8GB RAM
1TB hard drive.
Radeon 5770
DVD burner

$989.99 + $349.99 for a Samsun 27" LCD monitor, for a total of $1,339.98 for a savings of $359.

If I went the Cyberpower route, I could get the same PC for about $600, but you wanted name brands.

Quote:
6. Mac Pro 12-Core
Two 2.66GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon “Westmere” processors
6GB memory
1TB hard drive
18x double-layer SuperDrive
ATI Radeon HD 5770 with 1GB GDDR5
Ships: 2-4 business days
Free Shipping
$4,999.00
I honestly can't find anything off the shelf to match this Mac that costs less, however, I am assuming you picked the 12-core setup knowing that the "lesser" Mac Pro's would be easily destroyed in price by a PC equivalent. The only thing I can find would be a custom build that would total about $3,100. Please note that this spec was lifted off another site.

Quote:
Custom Built:
CPU: 2x Xeon X5650 2.66ghz (6cores each) $1599.98
CPU Coolers: Stock
Mobo: EVGa SR-2 $599.99
Ram: 6gb G-Skill Ripjaws 1600mhz cas 8 $139.99
HDD: Samsung Spinpoint F3 1tb 7200rpm $74.99
GPU: Sapphire 5770 1gb $149.99
Case: Coolermaster HAF 932 $139.98
PSU: Corsair HX1000 $229.99 ($40 MIR)
Keyboard and Mouse: Microsoft Wireless Keyboard and Mouse $44.41
OS: Windows 7 $99.99
DVD Burner: Lite-On DVD Burner 24x $17.99
If we went with a more mainstream 4-core Mac Pro for $2,499 I could easily match that setup for about 40% less, maybe more.
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,319 posts, read 21,906,946 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackandgold51 View Post
What or which is better?
I see this has spawned the typical debate so popular in online forums.

I will take a different approach.

(1) What are you interested in doing with your machine?

(2) When you say "PC", are you assuming that it will run Windows?

(3) Why are you curious about the difference?

The answers to those questions will provide some insight into what might be better ... or not ... in your case. No pun intended.

Good luck!
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:34 PM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,235,538 times
Reputation: 12496
Apples are blind- and deafblind-accessible out of the box. For the same or cheaper than a PC.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:59 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,155,305 times
Reputation: 12779
Who cares about the cost? Big deal, you have spend $500 more or less to make yourself satisfied with your purchase. $500! It's not enough money to consider when purchasing a tool that will make you more efficient and overall happier. We're talking about the valuer of a nice dinner, or half a day's work, or a weekend at your country club.

With a computer, "better" is defined by which can help you get more done the way you want to get it done. Not the petty cash of difference in price. The result will vary person to person. I always suggest that people stick with what they like.
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,346 posts, read 80,810,264 times
Reputation: 17412
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Who cares about the cost? Big deal, you have spend $500 more or less to make yourself satisfied with your purchase. $500! It's not enough money to consider when purchasing a tool that will make you more efficient and overall happier. We're talking about the valuer of a nice dinner, or half a day's work, or a weekend at your country club.

With a computer, "better" is defined by which can help you get more done the way you want to get it done. Not the petty cash of difference in price. The result will vary person to person. I always suggest that people stick with what they like.

I agree 100%.


That's why I don't buy Macs.
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