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Old 01-09-2019, 10:03 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
9,088 posts, read 6,400,707 times
Reputation: 9372

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnum Mike View Post
I'm running Windows 10 Pro, build 1803 and 1809 on 3 of my computers, and I noticed that Microsoft took the ability turn off (Disable) the Windows Update service some time in the last few months, thanks to their intrusive policies, they now force their updates whether you want to install them or not. You'll now have to disable the update services right after system start-up.

I still have Windows 7 Professional and Ultimate on two of my computers, and 8.1 on another and thankfully, they haven't taken away the ability to turn off WU service on them.
Good morning Mike,

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that Windows 10 Pro is now like Windows 10 Home has always been. I take it Pro had an update option in the main settings section, like all other previous Windows versions, and now it's gone. Now it's buried in the services section, like Home has always been, where most people will never go. It's pointless anyway unless you check it every single time you boot since Microsoft is going to turn it back on as they grin from their ivory tower above us all.

Back a few months ago, I had vowed to check every day and turn it off in services if need be. Not surprisingly, that vow didn't last long as it drifted down the priority list. So I've gotten several recent updates, including KB4480966 just this morning. All have fortunately seemed benign. Sadly these days the bar is low in defining benign - I just mean I can still boot my computer. That has not always been the case. But who knows what additional snooping has been incorporated.

I'm still at a loss to understand why all of this intrusive crap wasn't nipped in the bud instantly at the earliest stage. It would have been in the America we grew up in long ago. Sorry, perhaps I should just say I. And when I talk about intrusive crap, I'm including cookies. No person, company, or organization of any kind should have any access whatsoever to any content, usage patterns, or history of personal computers.

But, silly me, here I am talking about principle like that upon which our constitution is based....as though even 2 people in a hundred care today. Or even understand.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:41 AM
 
Location: SoCal
14,525 posts, read 15,751,060 times
Reputation: 10421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttark View Post
I love threads like this. They remind me how fortunate I am to be lane-splitting on a snappy, responsive bike running Debian down an highway full of huge, inefficient, slow Window$ trucks.

Ah, it's good to be good.
Would you mind sharing what desktop you use, because everything I try on my Debian system sucks. Too bad Linux can't steal the look and feel of Windows.

The problem is that both Microsoft and Apple are draconian in their policies, and being so huge both of them know you have only two choices, and the market bifurcates over aficionados of the two. Linux users can just change distros if they don't like something. Oh and Linux is free.

It's amazing that roughly half the Internet's web servers are Microsoft IIS, and the other half some form of Linux. Pay all that money for a server OS about as good as their PC OS, with yearly update fees, or just go download any distro you like, you can configure a high performance server without spending a penny on software. I guess bean counters figure if it's free it isn't worth anything. (My server runs Debian Jessie.)

But that is not going to fix Windows 10. The best you can do with that is make sure you buy the Pro version. Win10 is life as usual (a few new features, new user obfuscation, nasty unable to turn off updates in Home, and then sending an update too big for small SSD micro PCs.) I have two dead Win10 Home Premium micro-PCs that are useless and SSD cannot be upgraded because it's on a PCB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnum Mike View Post
I'm running Windows 10 Pro, build 1803 and 1809 on 3 of my computers, and I noticed that Microsoft took the ability turn off (Disable) the Windows Update service some time in the last few months, thanks to their intrusive policies, they now force their updates whether you want to install them or not. You'll now have to disable the update services right after system start-up.

I still have Windows 7 Professional and Ultimate on two of my computers, and 8.1 on another and thankfully, they haven't taken away the ability to turn off WU service on them.
Oh my God! It's blowing my mind that Microsoft would do that! I sort of get the Home Premium (intended for sheeple) but I'm certain there is an IT version that allows full control. The IT industry would NEVER condone losing control of updates for their corporate PC fleet.

Win7 is not much more than a year from end of support, including ALL UPDATES security or not. In 2020 Win7 will become useless except for use by idiots who do not comprehend being hacked.

I'm very happy with my 6-7 year old Sony Win7HP laptop but it's so old I'm gluing key tops back on (replacement keyboards long since went out of supply) and I'm amazed it made it to 2019. As soon as I've completed my major tasks this year (selling an investment house, filing my taxes) I have to find my next PC.

I had been planning on buying a mid-range Win10Pro laptop, but if I can't control my updates that changes everything. I have a bit of incidental IT experience as part of my engineering career, and when it comes to this stuff I have an IT mentality because I had so many IT friends on the job and learned from them.

As I said there are IMO no good Linux desktops. If MSFT is going to turn off our ability to accept or not accept updates then that is a major problem for sophisticated users.

I've tried Apple's PC products and sorry, I'm just brain dead on iOS except using my tablet and phone. You would think a professional software engineer could learn to operate an iMac. One of them can't.

There aren't any good choices any more. I think Microsoft is right in one respect, that the future is in the cloud. Taking it to the extreme all you need is a good connection, good display, and good keyboard. Doesn't matter where the processing takes place. And your terminal can be cheap, anything with a good monitor/keyboard.

My next major project is writing fiction. I don't need processing power, I need ease of use, a good display, a very good keyboard, and a platform OS that doesn't keep morphing on me.

I can't imagine MSFT dropping Win7 ability to control updates this close to end of life. From memory IIRC it's maybe 14-15 months from now and MSFT is going to wash their hands of Win7. That's why I'm happy both my OS and laptop are end-of-life at almost the same time. And if they get rid of Win10 Pro ability to turn off updates there will be an IT version or a control panel policy manager plug-in for IT staffs to tweak updates. I presume any solution will not be free. (I hope to hear more about Win10 ability to turn off updates.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
... Back a few months ago, I had vowed to check every day and turn it off in services if need be. Not surprisingly, that vow didn't last long as it drifted down the priority list. So I've gotten several recent updates, including KB4480966 just this morning. All have fortunately seemed benign. Sadly these days the bar is low in defining benign - I just mean I can still boot my computer. That has not always been the case. But who knows what additional snooping has been incorporated.
Ain't that the truth. They haven't gotten me yet but with my IT background I do a FULL backup before any updates including all My Documents plus email and browsing backups, and only then do I let 'er rip.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
I'm still at a loss to understand why all of this intrusive crap wasn't nipped in the bud instantly at the earliest stage. It would have been in the America we grew up in long ago... and when I talk about intrusive crap, I'm including cookies. No person, company, or organization of any kind should have any access whatsoever to any content, usage patterns, or history of personal computers.
Cookies are necessary for proper site operation. Trust me, I design websites and run my own dedicated server.

It's how they use them. Set your browser to dump all cookies on exit. Then add sites you want to your cookie exception list so they'll be remembered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
But, silly me, here I am talking about principle like that upon which our constitution is based....as though even 2 people in a hundred care today. Or even understand.
There is no Constitutional right to freedom from annoying products. That's up to the market place.

Last edited by Lovehound; 01-09-2019 at 11:41 AM..
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:15 AM
 
1,292 posts, read 452,249 times
Reputation: 2557
Quote:
Would you mind sharing what desktop you use, because everything I try on my Debian system sucks. Too bad Linux can't steal the look and feel of Windows.






Trinity (fork of KDE 3) with a kustomised layout sort of based on the Multifinder that shipped with System Software <=9. I call it "Kupertino". I'll package it up and put it up on the Web one of these months when I get round to it. KDE 4 just suX.

I tried LXDE/XFCE a kouple years ago and just wasn't impressed. Pcmanfm though is in my Trinity arsenal (kan do a few things that Konqueror kan't), so there's that.

(^-- See what I did there?)
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:46 PM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
9,088 posts, read 6,400,707 times
Reputation: 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovehound View Post
Would you mind sharing what desktop you use, because everything I try on my Debian system sucks. Too bad Linux can't steal the look and feel of Windows.

The problem is that both Microsoft and Apple are draconian in their policies, and being so huge both of them know you have only two choices, and the market bifurcates over aficionados of the two. Linux users can just change distros if they don't like something. Oh and Linux is free.

It's amazing that roughly half the Internet's web servers are Microsoft IIS, and the other half some form of Linux. Pay all that money for a server OS about as good as their PC OS, with yearly update fees, or just go download any distro you like, you can configure a high performance server without spending a penny on software. I guess bean counters figure if it's free it isn't worth anything. (My server runs Debian Jessie.)

But that is not going to fix Windows 10. The best you can do with that is make sure you buy the Pro version. Win10 is life as usual (a few new features, new user obfuscation, nasty unable to turn off updates in Home, and then sending an update too big for small SSD micro PCs.) I have two dead Win10 Home Premium micro-PCs that are useless and SSD cannot be upgraded because it's on a PCB.

Oh my God! It's blowing my mind that Microsoft would do that! I sort of get the Home Premium (intended for sheeple) but I'm certain there is an IT version that allows full control. The IT industry would NEVER condone losing control of updates for their corporate PC fleet.

Win7 is not much more than a year from end of support, including ALL UPDATES security or not. In 2020 Win7 will become useless except for use by idiots who do not comprehend being hacked.

I'm very happy with my 6-7 year old Sony Win7HP laptop but it's so old I'm gluing key tops back on (replacement keyboards long since went out of supply) and I'm amazed it made it to 2019. As soon as I've completed my major tasks this year (selling an investment house, filing my taxes) I have to find my next PC.

I had been planning on buying a mid-range Win10Pro laptop, but if I can't control my updates that changes everything. I have a bit of incidental IT experience as part of my engineering career, and when it comes to this stuff I have an IT mentality because I had so many IT friends on the job and learned from them.

As I said there are IMO no good Linux desktops. If MSFT is going to turn off our ability to accept or not accept updates then that is a major problem for sophisticated users.

I've tried Apple's PC products and sorry, I'm just brain dead on iOS except using my tablet and phone. You would think a professional software engineer could learn to operate an iMac. One of them can't.

There aren't any good choices any more. I think Microsoft is right in one respect, that the future is in the cloud. Taking it to the extreme all you need is a good connection, good display, and good keyboard. Doesn't matter where the processing takes place. And your terminal can be cheap, anything with a good monitor/keyboard.

My next major project is writing fiction. I don't need processing power, I need ease of use, a good display, a very good keyboard, and a platform OS that doesn't keep morphing on me.

I can't imagine MSFT dropping Win7 ability to control updates this close to end of life. From memory IIRC it's maybe 14-15 months from now and MSFT is going to wash their hands of Win7. That's why I'm happy both my OS and laptop are end-of-life at almost the same time. And if they get rid of Win10 Pro ability to turn off updates there will be an IT version or a control panel policy manager plug-in for IT staffs to tweak updates. I presume any solution will not be free. (I hope to hear more about Win10 ability to turn off updates.)

Ain't that the truth. They haven't gotten me yet but with my IT background I do a FULL backup before any updates including all My Documents plus email and browsing backups, and only then do I let 'er rip.


Cookies are necessary for proper site operation. Trust me, I design websites and run my own dedicated server.

It's how they use them. Set your browser to dump all cookies on exit. Then add sites you want to your cookie exception list so they'll be remembered.

There is no Constitutional right to freedom from annoying products. That's up to the market place.
Like I said....or even understand. This post is ripe with bait to get me started, but I'm not going to. Good day.
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Arizona, The American Southwest
52,155 posts, read 30,222,569 times
Reputation: 91137
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
Good morning Mike,

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that Windows 10 Pro is now like Windows 10 Home has always been. I take it Pro had an update option in the main settings section, like all other previous Windows versions, and now it's gone. Now it's buried in the services section, like Home has always been, where most people will never go. It's pointless anyway unless you check it every single time you boot since Microsoft is going to turn it back on as they grin from their ivory tower above us all.

Back a few months ago, I had vowed to check every day and turn it off in services if need be. Not surprisingly, that vow didn't last long as it drifted down the priority list. So I've gotten several recent updates, including KB4480966 just this morning. All have fortunately seemed benign. Sadly these days the bar is low in defining benign - I just mean I can still boot my computer. That has not always been the case. But who knows what additional snooping has been incorporated.
....
.
Hi CrownVic - Ooops.. A slight correction of the message I posted earlier today, Windows Update service was not Disabled on my Windows 10 Pro, build 1809, I had the service set to "Manual", every time I booted up the computer the service would start ONLY on what MS calls "On A Trigger", such as checking for Windows Defender Updates manually, the service would stay on, download the Windows updates and install them, once that starts, you cannot stop it. If the service is set to "Disabled", then it will remain disabled and it will not start on a reboot. I had to reinstall the Win 10 Pro on that computer in mid December because of problems I was experiencing with it, which I won't discuss here, but as soon as I install a 3rd party anti-virus and disable Defender, I'll Disable the Win 10 Update service completely and run it ONLY when the new updates have been proven to be bug-free. Sorry for the confusion... I might not have had enough coffee when I posted the message earlier today..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovehound View Post
.....
Oh my God! It's blowing my mind that Microsoft would do that! I sort of get the Home Premium (intended for sheeple) but I'm certain there is an IT version that allows full control. The IT industry would NEVER condone losing control of updates for their corporate PC fleet.
See my reply above..

Quote:
Win7 is not much more than a year from end of support, including ALL UPDATES security or not. In 2020 Win7 will become useless except for use by idiots who do not comprehend being hacked.

I'm very happy with my 6-7 year old Sony Win7HP laptop but it's so old I'm gluing key tops back on (replacement keyboards long since went out of supply) and I'm amazed it made it to 2019. As soon as I've completed my major tasks this year (selling an investment house, filing my taxes) I have to find my next PC.
.....
I can't imagine MSFT dropping Win7 ability to control updates this close to end of life. From memory IIRC it's maybe 14-15 months from now and MSFT is going to wash their hands of Win7. That's why I'm happy both my OS and laptop are end-of-life at almost the same time. And if they get rid of Win10 Pro ability to turn off updates there will be an IT version or a control panel policy manager plug-in for IT staffs to tweak updates. I presume any solution will not be free. (I hope to hear more about Win10 ability to turn off updates.)
....
I don't think Microsoft will turn off the ability to control updates on their 7 platform. The two devices that I have with Windows 7 are a HP desktop, which started life as a Vista computer and was upgraded to Win 7 Ultimate in 2011, I'm not sure what I'll do with it when support for 7 stops in 2020, by then it'll be 14 years old, it's still running great. I might upgrade it to Windows 10 Pro, or replace the OS completely with a Linux platform. The other is a Samsung laptop with 7 Home Premium, and it has MS Office 2010, so I'll most likely upgrade it (fresh install) to Windows 10 Pro.

On a side note, I do have 2 devices (HP Laptop and an Asus desktop) on my home network with Ubuntu Linux that I use for programming.
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:59 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
9,088 posts, read 6,400,707 times
Reputation: 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnum Mike View Post
Hi CrownVic - Ooops.. A slight correction of the message I posted earlier today, Windows Update service was not Disabled on my Windows 10 Pro, build 1809, I had the service set to "Manual", every time I booted up the computer the service would start ONLY on what MS calls "On A Trigger", such as checking for Windows Defender Updates manually, the service would stay on, download the Windows updates and install them, once that starts, you cannot stop it. If the service is set to "Disabled", then it will remain disabled and it will not start on a reboot. I had to reinstall the Win 10 Pro on that computer in mid December because of problems I was experiencing with it, which I won't discuss here, but as soon as I install a 3rd party anti-virus and disable Defender, I'll Disable the Win 10 Update service completely and run it ONLY when the new updates have been proven to be bug-free. Sorry for the confusion... I might not have had enough coffee when I posted the message earlier today..
No problem....thanks for the clarification.

I want to make sure I understand correctly. Does W10 Pro have an option in its main settings section to turn updates off? Home does not - you have to go to the services sub-menu in the Control panel to do it. But, as previously mentioned, even that is pointless unless you check it constantly. Because Big Brother Microsoft will turn it back on.

What I don't yet fully understand is what triggers Microsoft's intervention. It doesn't happen automatically with every boot. Example - I disabled it yesterday and this morning it remains disabled (after at least one shutdown and startup). What I know for sure is that it never stays disabled for very long anymore. I could do a detailed study, I suppose, checking it many times a day. I just haven't bothered because I know that it would be an exercise in futility anyway. Because so few care - or even know.
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