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Old 03-18-2011, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Central Virginia
834 posts, read 1,307,619 times
Reputation: 623

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southbel I agree 100% with your post. I guess I'm 50% southerner. Born in the north, spent the 2nd half of my life in the south.

however, I remember quite a few times having a southerner try to claim redneck as a southern thing. This was back when we were teenagers/college so maybe it was an age thing.And it seems a lot of country music tries to claim redneck as a southern thing as well. There are rednecks in every state, that's for sure. As well as country people. I'm from the boonies of New Jersey. I'm more "country" than someone from Atlanta.

But I agree that while the flag may have negative as well as positive roots, it is now a symbol of southern history. It should be left in the south.
I think if people want to be rebels against the government, just make a new flag. Come up with some tea party flag or something.

 
Old 03-18-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Central Virginia
834 posts, read 1,307,619 times
Reputation: 623
Also, I'm sure you can take ANY flag, including the United States flag and go back into history and find something shameful and horrible that happened. I don't believe any country on this earth has only happy and positive history behind their country's flag. So to say the rebel flag should be banned because of its history, you'd have to pretty much ban all flags, wouldn't you?

For the record, I haven't known any people personally from the north who felt the rebel flag should be banned. I think it's more accepted on the east coast. I have met a LOT of people from the west coast and Canada who act like the rebel flag is like walking around with a Swastika on your arm. There were many Canadians I met living in Florida who had always been told the Rebel flag was bad, bad, bad. Nothing more than a symbol of hatred and racism. So you can imagine their surprise when they move down south and see the flag flying all over the place. I can understand how shocking that must have been for them.
But still, doesn't mean the flag should go away, or have its meaning changed to appease the thin skinned.
 
Old 03-18-2011, 02:00 PM
 
438 posts, read 721,509 times
Reputation: 258
I'm very curious as to how certain posters explain away the Cornerstone Speech, in which the Vice President of the Confederate States makes it very, very clear that from his perspective, secession was all about slavery:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander H. Stephens
The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically...Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
Why is it so hard to understand that for many people, the flag of the confederacy inescapably implies a desire to see black people returned once again to that state of "subordination"?
 
Old 03-18-2011, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Twin Lakes /Taconic / Salisbury
2,257 posts, read 1,516,557 times
Reputation: 1763
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenband View Post
I'm very curious as to how certain posters explain away the Cornerstone Speech, in which the Vice President of the Confederate States makes it very, very clear that from his perspective, secession was all about slavery:


Why is it so hard to understand that for many people, the flag of the confederacy inescapably implies a desire to see black people returned once again to that state of "subordination"?



+1.. YankeeRose has NO clue of the real history and meaning behind the flag apparently..
 
Old 03-18-2011, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Central Virginia
834 posts, read 1,307,619 times
Reputation: 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRPct View Post
+1.. YankeeRose has NO clue of the real history and meaning behind the flag apparently..
I completely understand the history of the flag! Do you understand the history behind our flag? Do want to talk about what our forefathers did to the Native Americans in the name of our flag?

Re-read my post please. No place did I state that the Rebel flag doesn't have roots in slavery. I know there are SOME southerners who will deny this or don't want to accept it. Not me. There is no doubt the flag has roots in slavery.
My point is that history is history. NOW the flag is a symbol of southern heritage. The people in the south who fly the flag are not trying to bring slavery back, for cripes sake!

I don't have any dog in this fight. I have never flew the southern flag, don't have any rebel flag memorabilia nor do I plan to. I just understand what it means to the south and I respect that.
 
Old 03-19-2011, 03:21 AM
 
Location: Twin Lakes /Taconic / Salisbury
2,257 posts, read 1,516,557 times
Reputation: 1763
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankeerose00 View Post
I completely understand the history of the flag! Do you understand the history behind our flag? Do want to talk about what our forefathers did to the Native Americans in the name of our flag?

Re-read my post please. No place did I state that the Rebel flag doesn't have roots in slavery. I know there are SOME southerners who will deny this or don't want to accept it. Not me. There is no doubt the flag has roots in slavery.
My point is that history is history. NOW the flag is a symbol of southern heritage. The people in the south who fly the flag are not trying to bring slavery back, for cripes sake!

I don't have any dog in this fight. I have never flew the southern flag, don't have any rebel flag memorabilia nor do I plan to. I just understand what it means to the south and I respect that.
Well, the problem is most those people are MISTAKEN about the flag NOT standing for slavery and rest solely on the states' right aspect. Fact is it's BASIS is built on standing up FOR slavery. Whatever someone says it means to them today does NOT change it's original reason in this country. The difference with the horrible things under the guise of other "flags" like the American flag you brought up. It wasn't designed / taken soley for the reasons of the magnitude of the Confederate. It SHOULD be the same as a swastika for many today in this country taking that into account. Find a better display that doesnt have its very roots in such hate against a people. Or not, and be seen as such as those that flew it originally justifiably so to so many people. Enjoy continuing carrying the torch of those pains for those that are so calous and lazy to do so..... of course, just my opinion, supported by real facts and history.
 
Old 03-19-2011, 04:32 AM
 
Location: Mount Pleasant, SC
7,840 posts, read 3,525,785 times
Reputation: 3472
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRPct View Post
Well, the problem is most those people are MISTAKEN about the flag NOT standing for slavery and rest solely on the states' right aspect. Fact is it's BASIS is built on standing up FOR slavery. Whatever someone says it means to them today does NOT change it's original reason in this country. The difference with the horrible things under the guise of other "flags" like the American flag you brought up. It wasn't designed / taken soley for the reasons of the magnitude of the Confederate. It SHOULD be the same as a swastika for many today in this country taking that into account. Find a better display that doesnt have its very roots in such hate against a people. Or not, and be seen as such as those that flew it originally justifiably so to so many people. Enjoy continuing carrying the torch of those pains for those that are so calous and lazy to do so..... of course, just my opinion, supported by real facts and history.
Not to be argumentative, but to be historically accurate, the Confederate flag that is commonly displayed today is not a flag of slavery; it is based upon a battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. In fact, the usage of the Confederate flag that you see today came about primarily during the Civil Rights era. The stars and bars, the flag of the CSA, was quite similar in design and style to the American flag. The later versions of the CSA flags did utilize the design from the Northern Virginia battle flag and many Southern states changed their flags to identify with the different variations of CSA flags.

Yes, symbolism is powerful but it is also unique to each and every person. How one views one symbol is based upon so many variables that it cannot be precisely defined as meaning any one specific thing. Such is the case of the Confederate flag (modern version). In addition, I can guarantee you that a majority of Southerners do not view this flag as solely one thing or another. It is a symbol of our history, both the good and the bad. Remember, a symbol can only convey hate and intolerance if it is utilized in a hateful way. For example, I sincerely doubt that the Hindus utilization of the swastika is in a hateful and intolerant way.
 
Old 03-19-2011, 06:25 AM
 
Location: the South
247 posts, read 290,089 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbel View Post
Not to be argumentative, but to be historically accurate, the Confederate flag that is commonly displayed today is not a flag of slavery; it is based upon a battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. In fact, the usage of the Confederate flag that you see today came about primarily during the Civil Rights era. The stars and bars, the flag of the CSA, was quite similar in design and style to the American flag. The later versions of the CSA flags did utilize the design from the Northern Virginia battle flag and many Southern states changed their flags to identify with the different variations of CSA flags.

Yes, symbolism is powerful but it is also unique to each and every person. How one views one symbol is based upon so many variables that it cannot be precisely defined as meaning any one specific thing. Such is the case of the Confederate flag (modern version). In addition, I can guarantee you that a majority of Southerners do not view this flag as solely one thing or another. It is a symbol of our history, both the good and the bad. Remember, a symbol can only convey hate and intolerance if it is utilized in a hateful way. For example, I sincerely doubt that the Hindus utilization of the swastika is in a hateful and intolerant way.

To clear this all up...As a VA born & raised Southern Belle, I can tell ya'll, ya'll are BOTH somewhat right. Older folks may fly it out of hatred, racism, or rememberance of slavery but most of us don't. I strongly encourage ya'll to remember how those folks may have grown up though. Most of us don't fly the flag for any reason other than pride in being Southern & our heritage. Don't believe me? I strongly encourage a trip down here into Dixie and ask around. God Bless Ya'll.
 
Old 03-19-2011, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Central Virginia
834 posts, read 1,307,619 times
Reputation: 623
It's funny I'm defending the flag. My honest opinion is that I find it kind of annoying. The civil war is over. We are all Americans. This north/south, Yankee thing just seems so ignorant. Clinging to the Civil War just seems futile. It also gives an area a very closed off feeling of hating anyone else not from the south. Kind of the opposite of southern hospitality.

BUT whether I agree or not, I will defend a southerners right to fly their flag. Nobody should tell them they don't have that right. I'm also aware that most people who fly the flag do so out of pride and heritage, even to look cool and like a rebel, not because they agree with slavery. Most of the people in the south where I lived who were really into the rebel flag were younger guys anyway. And I guess that alone was enough for me to not take it too seriously.
There are roots in slavery but it does not stand for slavery. I believe those are very different things.
 
Old 03-20-2011, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Guilford, CT & NYC
168 posts, read 117,406 times
Reputation: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by nep321 View Post
Has anyone else noticed that there seems to be an increasing appearance of confederate flags around CT? I have seen several stickers on pickup trucks. And...shockingly, there is a large confederate flag covering a window of a building in downtown Middletown, facing the street! It's very visible. What's going on?

It could stand for Southern Rock. Remember the Allman Brothers, Lynrd Skynrd all used it. The Allman's also had two African American's in their band (Butch Trucks and another; bass & drummer). The Confederate Flag you see is a battle flag, not the flag of the CSA. Also Judah P. Benjamin, a Jew, was the Secretary of State for the CSA whom almost got the Brits into the war against the Union. It is an ambiguous meaning that flag.
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