[JViello]

Originally Posted by bobtn

BTW, do expect a mass exodus. Weicker's Income Tax and the 250,000 90s outbound migration costing Congressman #6, are not coincidental timing. Mass manufacturing loss (120k of 300k) also occured-in precisely the same decade.

That's exactly what I was alluding to in my previous post. Many "younger" folks here probably don't remember that time.

Originally Posted by mlassoff

Yes, fairness is in the eye of the beholder.

I imagine that $4,000 to a family making 20K is a lot more meaningful in QOL than a family earning 1 Mil paying 200K.

I thought "fair" was "fair". Who are you, or the government to redefine what's "fair"? What's stopping that family from doing something to increase their bottom line and situation? Why do we advocate so hard to "provide" instead of "promote"?

Originally Posted by mlassoff

I'd much rather be able to pay our fireman, police and teachers.

Uh, Mark...that's why we are in this mess to begin with. They are overpaid right now and have pension benefits that equal a million dollar nest egg. (I've showed the math on this previously that was provided by a financial planner friend.)

Perhaps it's because you come from a wealthy family that you don't understand those of us who come from hard scrabble backgrounds. You had all the opportunity provided for you, we didn't. I'm not saying your spoiled, not at all. What I'm saying is, when you have that kind of security, you don't understand the idea of having NOTHING BUT opportunity. Many in this country have forgotten that.

I don't want a hand out, I don't want the government to provide. I WANT to work for it, and I WANT the opportunity to achieve. I am proud to do what I do and it would be humiliating for me to get a "program" or "settle".

[JViello]

Tax proposal explained in detail.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8UWRvctR80

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by nep321

I'm just saying that under a flat tax system, high-income earners would very well be paying a lot more tax dollars than low income earners. In my example above, the government would collect $4,000 from the low income earner and would collect a whopping $200,000 from the high income earner. The millionaire earned 50x the income of the low income person and therefore pays 50x the taxes. It's very simple. It's a linear method of collecting taxes. The higher one earns, the more tax dollars one pays. A flat tax system would satisfy this notion. I don't believe in penalizing the rich simply because they make more money. Nor do I beleive in lowering taxes only for the middle class, simply because filling up your gas tank costs $30, regardless of whether your rich or poor. It is what it is. Tough crap. I'm a middle class household and I accept this reality, because there is no favoritism and cherry-picking of who receives more benefits, etc.

I guess there is our basic philosophical difference. I believe that supporting poor and middle class families leads to a more just and pleasant society. I don't believe in institutionalizing the further erosion of the middle class. In the wealthiest country in the world, I'm not sure it's necessary to say "tough crap" to poor and middle class families and children just to protect the interests of the ultra-rich.

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by JViello

You had all the opportunity provided for you, we didn't. I'm not saying your spoiled, not at all. What I'm saying is, when you have that kind of security, you don't understand the idea of having NOTHING BUT opportunity. Many in this country have forgotten that.

And what I advocate is to provide everyone with the opportunities I had. By sheer luck I was born in to a family with a high income. I had opportunities that others didn't by virtue of where I went to high school, the fact that my parents could pay for a college across the country where I went to a top program in my chosen field, etc... These opportunities are not accessible to everyone, but they should be.

My parents grew up poor in Brooklyn. My father worked his way through city college and built his wealth through hard work in the financial sector-- Among those with much better educational pedigrees.

You and I seem to agree here, I think. Opportunity for all. The question is: How do we best provide that.

[JViello]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

I guess there is our basic philosophical difference. I believe that supporting poor and middle class families leads to a more just and pleasant society. I don't believe in institutionalizing the further erosion of the middle class. In the wealthiest country in the world, I'm not sure it's necessary to say "tough crap" to poor and middle class families and children just to protect the interests of the ultra-rich.

The ultra rich have never debted my bank account, they have never charged me for something. They have only put money directly into my bank account.

The government on the other hand, has debted my account and left me pennyless like a cold hearted bast*rd. Government is the cause of the demise of the middle class. Redistribution of wealth doesn't work.

I think you have it backwards.

[JViello]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

And what I advocate is to provide everyone with the opportunities I had. By sheer luck I was born in to a family with a high income. I had opportunities that others didn't by virtue of where I went to high school, the fact that my parents could pay for a college across the country where I went to a top program in my chosen field, etc... These opportunities are not accessible to everyone, but they should be.

My parents grew up poor in Brooklyn. My father worked his way through city college and built his wealth through hard work in the financial sector-- Among those with much better educational pedigrees.

You and I seem to agree here, I think. Opportunity for all. The question is: How do we best provide that.

Agreed on that point.

Don't take this the wrong way...I appreciate your concern, but get the hell out of my life. I don't need someone to "provide" anything for me, or take it away from me. Let me live free, and with the opportunity to make something of myself just like your parents did. If I fail, I fail, and that's on me and my family. I don't need a parent on a government level.

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by JViello

Agreed on that point.

Don't take this the wrong way...I appreciate your concern, but get the hell out of my life. I don't need someone to "provide" anything for me, or take it away from me. Let me live free, and with the opportunity to make something of myself just like your parents did. If I fail, I fail, and that's on me and my family. I don't need a parent on a government level.

I'm sure you're more than welcome to opt out of any "hand-out" program that offends your sensibilities or your personal ethics.

I'm sure there are millions of middle class families who would appreciate a break on school tuition, taxes, child care, etc., so they can have a higher standard of living. I also am certain there are millions of poor families who would appreciate the same and benefit from school nutrition programs, counseling services and free health care. That's what I think helps level the playing field. Yes, it will require the rich to give up a higher percentage of their wealth in taxes... Considering the wealthy pay less taxes now than they have in decades, I don't think it's asking much....

Maybe your kids would appreciate still being able to eat if you fail?

I really don't see how any of what I support effects your ability to effect the direction of your family's life.

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by JViello

The ultra rich have never debted my bank account, they have never charged me for something. They have only put money directly into my bank account.

The government on the other hand, has debted my account and left me pennyless like a cold hearted bast*rd. Government is the cause of the demise of the middle class. Redistribution of wealth doesn't work.

I think you have it backwards.

Every time you pay exorbitant health care premiums and co-pays-- any portion of that which goes to health insurance company profits-- is an example of the ultra rich debiting your bank account.

When you pay a healthy portion of your income towards federal, state and local taxes, but Exxon skates by on deductions and loopholes the ultra-rich are debiting your bank account.

[Cambium]

Originally Posted by JViello

I appreciate your concern, but get the hell out of my life. I don't need someone to "provide" anything for me, or take it away from me. Let me live free, and with the opportunity to make something of myself just like your parents did. If I fail, I fail, and that's on me and my family. I don't need a parent on a government level.

We might disagree on many things but that my friend has to be the best thing I read in a long time... AMEN!! I wish I can comment further but it would get too political.

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by Cambium

We might disagree on many things but that my friend has to be the best thing I read in a long time... AMEN!! I wish I can comment further but it would get too political.

Plenty of places have less government intervention than here. Somalia, Cour de' Voir and currently Egypt are all shining examples.