[BobNJ1960]

Originally Posted by JayCT

Which is why the state wants to expand the XL to 17,000 to 19,000 seats. Jay

The 12k season ticket barrier is the brutal part, non-refundable deposits. NHL is driven almost totally by gate. TV isn't much.

[BobNJ1960]

Originally Posted by RunD1987

Still raises the question why? Renovations and expanding the Webster Arena would be a better idea due to access to the train/ferry. The already built fan base of the Sound Tigers. Plus it's close proximity to Long Island and near New York.

You can't renovate it to 15k w/o imploding it and building new. The land is there, but that is costlier than modifying Hartford which is far closer to the required footprint already.

[just_because]

Originally Posted by ryanthegoldengod

You don't think 40 years is long enough to "pay your dues"? And that concept no longer seems to apply. The Atlanta Braves are moving into a new ballpark this year 20 years after moving into their last one. The Texas Rangers are trying to get a retractable roof stadium not much more than 20 years after their current park opened. Virtually all the cities with baseball and football now have entirely separate stadiums for each team when they once shared common, all purpose stadiums. The old Boston Garden was very much the anomaly, not in any way the norm.

And yes I think this market can support an NHL team. It's the largest market in the US without a major league sports team. And the support for the Whalers really wasn't that bad considering they won a grand total of one playoff series. I can remember seeing empty seats everywhere during Patriots games in the early 90's when they were losing, now good luck finding a ticket. Nearly ALL fan bases are fair weather fans.

Contrast Hartford with Carolina. the Raleigh market can't draw fans even though they won a Stanley Cup. That's when you know a market just won't support hockey.

Your claim that the Hartford MSA is the largest market with no major league pro team is simply not true. By population, Hartford MSA is ranked 47 and there are several larger markets without a ML team. You also need to look at growth rate and Hartford MSA is shrinking, not growing. FYI, Austin, TX (a hugely growing market - 3rd highest growth from 2010 to 2015 censuses -16.5% growth and growing with young, educated people with money) is the largest market with no ML pro team, not Hartford. That's just one example. Even Providence MSA is larger than Hartford and has no ML pro sports. Sorry but these things need correction as views (hopefully not decisions) are being taken on misinformation.

The Whalers left 20 years ago so that's ancient history. Anyway, if you want to use it to support the case, happy to respond. The economic conditions in Hartford relative to other high growth 'new' city options have not got any better since the Whale left town so I don't really understand the relevance of your point that support for the Whalers wasn't "that bad". Attendance was one of the things that drove them out. Whalers are best left out of the argument for a new NHL escapade.

There is little proven appetite for arena events in Hartford. UConn men's basketball is ranked 40th for attendance (it's similar for Storrs and Hartford XL and when at XL they average 5,000 empty seats). The Wolf Pack is at the very back of the AHL pack for attendance throwing into question the "Hartford is a hockey town" idea that we are just supposed to accept without challenge. Concerts largely ignore the XL/Hartford. UConn women have good attendance relative to the competition (ranked 5 for attendance in the league) but that's just an average of 9,000 - less than 2/3 the capacity of the XL.

If it were your own money, would you invest it in bringing NHL to a shrinking market that has very weak support its own AHL team and little proven appetite for arena events? This is certainly not where I would place my bets as the data just doesn't add up. It might be hard to swallow but the facts speak for themselves.

[Matrix2791]

Would love to see the Islanders come here, but realistically I just don't see it happening. Would love to be proven wrong!

[ryanthegoldengod]

Originally Posted by just_because

Your claim that the Hartford MSA is the largest market with no major league pro team is simply not true. By population, Hartford MSA is ranked 47 and there are several larger markets without a ML team. You also need to look at growth rate and Hartford MSA is shrinking, not growing. FYI, Austin, TX (a hugely growing market - 3rd highest growth from 2010 to 2015 censuses -16.5% growth and growing with young, educated people with money) is the largest market with no ML pro team, not Hartford. That's just one example. Even Providence MSA is larger than Hartford and has no ML pro sports. Sorry but these things need correction as views (hopefully not decisions) are being taken on misinformation.

The Whalers left 20 years ago so that's ancient history. Anyway, if you want to use it to support the case, happy to respond. The economic conditions in Hartford relative to other high growth 'new' city options have not got any better since the Whale left town so I don't really understand the relevance of your point that support for the Whalers wasn't "that bad". Attendance was one of the things that drove them out. Whalers are best left out of the argument for a new NHL escapade.

There is little proven appetite for arena events in Hartford. UConn men's basketball is ranked 40th for attendance (it's similar for Storrs and Hartford XL and when at XL they average 5,000 empty seats). The Wolf Pack is at the very back of the AHL pack for attendance throwing into question the "Hartford is a hockey town" idea that we are just supposed to accept without challenge. Concerts largely ignore the XL/Hartford. UConn women have good attendance relative to the competition (ranked 5 for attendance in the league) but that's just an average of 9,000 - less than 2/3 the capacity of the XL.

If it were your own money, would you invest it in bringing NHL to a shrinking market that has very weak support its own AHL team and little proven appetite for arena events? This is certainly not where I would place my bets as the data just doesn't add up. It might be hard to swallow but the facts speak for themselves.

Translation: you care about your taxes more than you care about sports. But the numbers for UConn are misleading. They draw very well when they win. They just happen to be terrible this year. And they were mediocre the last couple of years. And the XL Center decline in concerts has little to do with the XL Center and more to do with the increase of amphitheater concerts in the summer and the dual revenue that be generated by concerts at Mohegan Sun.

Also you can't look at strictly by the growth of a market. The second question is: is their or could there be a hockey culture and fanbase? More so than football, baseball, and basketball, hockey is still a bit of a niche sport and the NHL has had very mixed results trying to cram hockey down an uninterested market's throat just because they were a growing market. Phoenix is a boomtown but the Coyotes are struggling mightily and might leave. Atlanta is a large market but they failed with two NHL franchises. Raleigh is growing but they are last in attendance....

[SeaDoo342]

Originally Posted by ryanthegoldengod

Translation: you care about your taxes more than you care about sports.

If that's what it translates to, I'm with him...

[BobNJ1960]

Originally Posted by ryanthegoldengod

Translation: you care about your taxes more than you care about sports. But the numbers for UConn are misleading. ....

Wrong. Numbers are objective, and , for example, in good and bad years, Nashville draws well. That is the test..draw well when not playing well.


Whaler attendance stunk.


Sound Tigers and Wolfpack attendance-nothing to write home about.

[just_because]

Originally Posted by ryanthegoldengod

Translation: you care about your taxes more than you care about sports. But the numbers for UConn are misleading. They draw very well when they win. They just happen to be terrible this year. And they were mediocre the last couple of years. And the XL Center decline in concerts has little to do with the XL Center and more to do with the increase of amphitheater concerts in the summer and the dual revenue that be generated by concerts at Mohegan Sun.

Also you can't look at strictly by the growth of a market. The second question is: is their or could there be a hockey culture and fanbase? More so than football, baseball, and basketball, hockey is still a bit of a niche sport and the NHL has had very mixed results trying to cram hockey down an uninterested market's throat just because they were a growing market. Phoenix is a boomtown but the Coyotes are struggling mightily and might leave. Atlanta is a large market but they failed with two NHL franchises. Raleigh is growing but they are last in attendance....

Call it taxes or call it fiscal responsibility but this is always vital, especially given the financial issues in the city and state.

It should have been clear that I was not looking strictly at growth as I supported my points using many themes. In fact you looked only at market size in your previous post.

I agree with you that it takes much more than high market growth to support an NHL team. But a shrinking market is always carries a big caution when considering markets to enter (unless you are in the liquidation or pay check loan business!)

You're making my points for me here - I agree that concerts ignoring Hartford have little to do with the state of the XL. This means that building a new and shiny arena will do little to attract more concerts so your point supports the opposite of the point you are trying to make.

What support is there for your point that Hartford can have a 'hockey culture'? I've lived in a southern city with a small minor league hockey team that played in an awful facility (puddles on the ice, horrible for comfort, etc). This team had a cult following like I've never seen in Hartford. I'm not saying that means an NHL team would be supported there as they would never fill a 15k seat arena but even if niche, i've never seen the equivalent of that passion in Hartford (AHL, UConn, etc). As already pointed out, the Whalers did not have good attendance. Where's the support for a hockey culture? The Wolf Pack have nearly the worst attendance record.

Your comments about support when winning vs losing should cause concern for all. Since it's likely that the team would not be on a long winning streak, there will be problems. Since there are many Rangers and Bruins fans in CT, it's particularly easy to see fair weather fans who will continue to support the Rangers or Bruiins and only go along for the ride when Hartford is winning. Not like the die hard fans in Detroit, Philly, Minnesota or in Canadian teams).

If you want to appeal to emotion and how nice it would be to have an NHL team in Hartford, then that's your right but we should be clear that this is the basis of your argument on this issue.

I think the NHL will struggle as entertainment preferences change over time. Strong existing hockey markets will do OK for years to come but it will be a very rough ride to try to expand this niche sport into shaky already crowded markets like Hartford (or the high growth southern cities).

[JayCT]

The main reason major concerts avoid the XL is that there is another major facility, the Xfinity Meadows right up the street. During warm weather months, when many major concerts tour, major concerts are held there. It is a beautiful facility so why go to the drab XL? Jay

[JayCT]

Tis article kind of says it all. We have to ask ourselves exactly what we want Hartford to be. If we want Hartford to be a first class small city, whether we like it or not, something has to be done with the XL Center. As Jeff Jacobs notes, something has to be done and it might be better to ask what Hartford be like WITHOUT the XL Center? Is that really what we want our capitol to be? I also agree with his take on the negativity and cynicism and how it solves nothing. It is not going to make Hartford into a Boston or a San Francisco and it certainly is not going to make the city attractive to companies that are here or may be looking to locate offices there. It is easy to complain and many here do but it is not easy to come up with answers. Jay

Jeff Jacobs: Transforming XL Center Is Right Answer For Our State - Hartford Courant