[wavehunter007]

Originally Posted by toxxicduck

That sounds nice, but maybe then unaffordable. Middle-class may be too relative a term; I'm not talking working class, although in this economy that feels like what we've been reduced to. But besides the obviously wealthy, and the long time generations - I imagine the income levels from those working in proximity to NYC and Boston would be pretty high. Could a family income of say $150,000 to $180,000 get at what I described? Guess that's probably is working class in some areas.

Since I work for a company that researches pop and demographic data…let me just add my 2c…

Keep in mind southwest Connecticut is in a different price bracket than most other regions of Connecticut or the USA. Due to very close proxmity to NYC (Manhattan) places like Fairfield County, Long Island, and the Lower Hudson Valley are of course very pricey. So if you need to be within a 4-min commuter train ride into NYC…then you must look in FFC, and of course deal with the super high real estate costs.

However, places closer to the New Haven area have plenty of homes that are HALF as much as the towns closer in FFC /closer to NYC. I don’t know how often you plan on having to be in Manhattan, but keep in mid the Metro North train will take about 90 minutes from most of the New Haven area to Grand Central Station…as opposed to maybe 40-minutes from Westport or Stamford. .

Outside of southwest Connecticut (Fairfield County)…housing prices in Connecticut are significantly more in line with many areas of the USA. There are PLENTY of families with an income far less than $180,000 that have no trouble finding a home in New Haven or Middlesex Counties, or other areas of Connecticut. The median family income in Connecticut in 2005 - 2008 was $92,000 (and super top heavy FFC is averaged into this)…compared to $52,000 in Idaho. The image of wealth Connecticut families really is confined to a small area of the state close to NYC. Less than 5% of all families in Connecticut (or any other state, for that matter) makes $180,000 per year or more. Income - Median Income for 4-Person Families, by State).

In the greater New Haven areas you can look in the towns of Hamden, Branford, North Branford, North Haven, East Haven, Guilford, Madison, Westbrook, Clinton, Milford, Stratford, Shelton…etc. There are commuter trains that run along the Connecticut coast from most of these locations every hour into NYC. Many areas of these towns/cities have families making $75,000 to $125,000 with many homes priced in the $300,000 to $450,000 range. In fact, Connecticut has a HUGE volume of foreclosed homes, you might be able to snag a bank owned home for less then $189,000.

Finally, in terms of weather… well to me it seems south of Boston on the East Coast there really is only two seasons: the warm/hot season from late April to late October…and the cold season from November though March. Spring and fall are really a state of mind.

Moving from a semi-arid area (Boise/southern Idaho) to a humid/wetter climate (East Coast), make take some adjusting to. The Atlantic Ocean provides humidity and moisture yearound…especially in southern Connecticut. Temperature wise southern Idaho and southern Connecticut are fairly similar…although southern Connecticut is a little warmer in fall. Snowfall is fairly similar: Boise averages about 20.0 inches… cities like Stamford/ New Haven average about 24.0 inches according to the NWS. Overall, winters are sunnier in Connecticut compared to Boise/southern Idaho. Here is a quick monthly mean temp comparison form the NWS (add 10 F for highs/subtract 10F for lows.).

Boise, ID

Jan - 29
Feb- 36
Mar - 43
Apr - 49
May- 57
Jun - 66
Jul - 73
Aug - 73
Sep - 63
Oct - 52
Nov - 39
Dec- 30

Stamford/New Haven, CT

Jan - 30
Feb- 32
Mar - 40
Apr - 49
May- 57
Jun - 68
Jul - 74
Aug - 73
Sep - 65
Oct – 55
Nov - 45
Dec- 35

Cheers

[kidyankee764]

Wavehunter - you do give some good points. At the same time, your post leads people to believe that in the rest of CT, real estate prices are similar to Anytown, USA. Even outside of FFC, the state would still be among the wealthiest states and incredibly expensive to buy a home. Eastern CT where you are located would be the cheapest, but still not "cheap".

[toxxicduck]

Wow! Thanks so much for all the great information, I was afraid it might be too stupid of a question.

Guess I can give a little more info. I'm trying for it all and then work backwards from there to what I can actually do. I'd take CT all on it's own, just wasn't sure how the job/income search would fair further into the state, and then what realistic expectations of working close to home. And whether I'm just supposed to be taking advantage of proximity to either of two of the all-time great cities. But what I'm really interested in is the charming new england town (married with children). And the possibility of working in or visiting great cities just icing on the cake.

A lot of places show up when look for great places to live, but probably not surprising to all of you, CT comes up very often, and as a place that actually lives up to that description. That's why I say I'm open to the suggestion that the i'm falling for a naive yester-year myth that's been long since shed or never existed. Just seems like beautiful smart four-seasoned cultural historical independent towns with good schools and quality of life are too much to ask for, and no longer created by modern city, residential, and commerical development practices.

I appreciate the comparisons to Idaho very much, lived there last 15 years - I had to update my status, I'm in grad school in Portland now, and a lot of people love it, there's a lot to love here, but to me a place that has it all seems like the northeast.

I've lived previously in Atlanta, Hawaii, and northern CA.

[wavehunter007]

Originally Posted by kidyankee764

Even outside of FFC, the state would still be among the wealthiest states and incredibly expensive to buy a home. Eastern CT where you are located would be the cheapest, but still not "cheap".

Kidyankee:

I understand what you’re saying…but to be fair to the numbers…and Connecticut…that’s really not true.

One of the problems that people often run into when they compare different regions of the USA is that they forget to “equally compare regions”: In other words… apples to apples oranges to oranges: If someone were considering moving from the city San Francisco, CA…to some suburban town outside of Evansville, Indiana… they would obviously say how suburban Evansville is so much cheaper to buy a home in (and incomes are so much lower). Of course it is not a fair comparison, SF is one of the most important cities in North America, a center of finance, education, and industry… while a suburban town outside of Evansville is small town located next to a small regional Midwestern city.

When you compare the cost of housing and local incomes outside of FFC and perhaps Litchfield County (because of proxmity to NYC) … Connecticut real estate prices and incomes are in the ballpark of any urban, densely populated area of the USA mainland. Homes and incomes throughout most of Connecticut (again outside FFC) are in-line with metro New Jersey (outside Phil and NYC), eastern Massachusetts, suburban Baltimore, suburban Washington DC, metro south Florida, metro Atlanta, metro Charlotte/Ra, NC, southern and northern metro California, metro Denver, metro Phoenix, and the bigger metro areas of the Pacific northwest.

Here is quick list of county wide real estate prices as of September 2009 for Oregon (where Toxxicduck is now) and for Connecticut (where he/she might go).


Connecticut Home Prices and CT Heat Map - Trulia Real Estate Search - Trulia.com

Oregon Home Prices and OR Heat Map - Trulia Real Estate Search - Trulia.com


As you can easily see…outside of FFC/LFC in Connecticut… real estate prices in metro Oregon are very similar to real estate prices in Connecticut. In fact, Multnomah, Washington, and Clackamass Counties (in/near metro Portland) are MORE EXPENSIVE than New Haven (metro New Haven), Hartford (metro Hartford) , and New London (metro New London/Groton). Home prices are inflated in Connecticut because the extreme values in FFC.

I realized that many in Connecticut find it glamorous that movies stars, wealthy business people, millionaires, live in our state…but it is unfair to say that FFC and southwest Connecticut is typical of the economic and social conditions that exists in the whole state. If one looks at real estate costs in much of Connecticut compared to other “similar urban/metro regions”…we are in the same ballpark as they are.

…and when one looks at real estate prices in southwest Connecticut itself…CONSIDER that arguably the most important city on plant earth is only 30 minutes away. Think about WHERE YOU ARE. NYC has more corp offices..than the top 20 cities in the USA COMBINED. Price out some flats near London, or row house within 30 minutes of Toyko, or villa in Madrid (lol).

[renovating]

Originally Posted by toxxicduck

Could a family income of say $150,000 to $180,000 get at what I described? Guess that's probably is working class in some areas.

Median Household incomes per CD for 2007: (rounded)

Darien $180k
Westport 147K
Greenwich $122k
New Fairfield 104K
Fairfield 103K
Ridgefield 100k
Trumbull 98k

150-180k income is upper middle class even in CT. You can live very well on that and have your pick of beautiful towns.

[kidyankee764]

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Kidyankee:

I understand what you’re saying…but to be fair to the numbers…and Connecticut…that’s really not true.

One of the problems that people often run into when they compare different regions of the USA is that they forget to “equally compare regions”: In other words… apples to apples oranges to oranges: If someone were considering moving from the city San Francisco, CA…to some suburban town outside of Evansville, Indiana… they would obviously say how suburban Evansville is so much cheaper to buy a home in (and incomes are so much lower). Of course it is not a fair comparison, SF is one of the most important cities in North America, a center of finance, education, and industry… while a suburban town outside of Evansville is small town located next to a small regional Midwestern city.

When you compare the cost of housing and local incomes outside of FFC and perhaps Litchfield County (because of proxmity to NYC) … Connecticut real estate prices and incomes are in the ballpark of any urban, densely populated area of the USA mainland. Homes and incomes throughout most of Connecticut (again outside FFC) are in-line with metro New Jersey (outside Phil and NYC), eastern Massachusetts, suburban Baltimore, suburban Washington DC, metro south Florida, metro Atlanta, metro Charlotte/Ra, NC, southern and northern metro California, metro Denver, metro Phoenix, and the bigger metro areas of the Pacific northwest.

Here is quick list of county wide real estate prices as of September 2009 for Oregon (where Toxxicduck is now) and for Connecticut (where he/she might go).


Connecticut Home Prices and CT Heat Map - Trulia Real Estate Search - Trulia.com

Oregon Home Prices and OR Heat Map - Trulia Real Estate Search - Trulia.com


As you can easily see…outside of FFC/LFC in Connecticut… real estate prices in metro Oregon are very similar to real estate prices in Connecticut. In fact, Multnomah, Washington, and Clackamass Counties (in/near metro Portland) are MORE EXPENSIVE than New Haven (metro New Haven), Hartford (metro Hartford) , and New London (metro New London/Groton). Home prices are inflated in Connecticut because the extreme values in FFC.

I realized that many in Connecticut find it glamorous that movies stars, wealthy business people, millionaires, live in our state…but it is unfair to say that FFC and southwest Connecticut is typical of the economic and social conditions that exists in the whole state. If one looks at real estate costs in much of Connecticut compared to other “similar urban/metro regions”…we are in the same ballpark as they are.

…and when one looks at real estate prices in southwest Connecticut itself…CONSIDER that arguably the most important city on plant earth is only 30 minutes away. Think about WHERE YOU ARE. NYC has more corp offices..than the top 20 cities in the USA COMBINED. Price out some flats near London, or row house within 30 minutes of Toyko, or villa in Madrid (lol).

A few things-

First, RE values in, say, the Hartford area are still much higher than values to buy a home minutes from Charlotte, NC, or Orlando, FL - even Miami to a degree. I lived in Charlotte - it's astonishing what you can get for your money down there. If you want to compare apples to apples, you must take into consideration city size and accessibility to those cities. For example, you can't compare the suburbs of Charlotte to the suburbs of Hartford as Charlotte is a much larger city with a ton of financial corporations - many times the size of Hartford. And even then, homes in suburban Matthews can be had for the mid 100's, condos much less than 100k.

Going in the other direction, homes in metro Hartford cannot be compared to the values in southern/northern CA, even if you're talking about Sacramento. Fairfield County is more in line with CA prices, obviously.

I'm unsure as to why you're comparing suburbs just outside of very large cities to suburbs of New Haven.

I also disagree that home prices in CT are inflated due to FFC. They are high because of their location between Boston and New York, in addition to the many excellent universities, highly skilled labor force, beaches, mountains and generally higher expectations than you'll find in most other states.

Anyway JMO.

[wavehunter007]

Originally Posted by kidyankee764

A few things-

First, RE values in, say, the Hartford area are still much higher than values to buy a home minutes from Charlotte, NC, or Orlando, FL - even Miami to a degree. I lived in Charlotte - it's astonishing what you can get for your money down there. If you want to compare apples to apples, you must take into consideration city size and accessibility to those cities. For example, you can't compare the suburbs of Charlotte to the suburbs of Hartford as Charlotte is a much larger city with a ton of financial corporations - many times the size of Hartford. And even then, homes in suburban Matthews can be had for the mid 100's, condos much less than 100k.

Going in the other direction, homes in metro Hartford cannot be compared to the values in southern/northern CA, even if you're talking about Sacramento. Fairfield County is more in line with CA prices, obviously.

I'm unsure as to why you're comparing suburbs just outside of very large cities to suburbs of New Haven.

I also disagree that home prices in CT are inflated due to FFC. They are high because of their location between Boston and New York, in addition to the many excellent universities, highly skilled labor force, beaches, mountains and generally higher expectations than you'll find in most other states.

Anyway JMO.

Perhaps you did not understand me (or the why I phrased it came out wrong)…

If someone looks at the “state-wide average price figure” of a home in Connecticut (in the case of the data above $575,000)…they might conclude that most homes in Connecticut go for $550 – 600,000. However, when you factor "out" the very high prices of FFC/LFC…the price drops to $356,000 (tied for 21st most expensive with Arizona). My point was the “single figure” that people often quote when talking about home prices in Connecticut... is misleading due to the colossal prices in most of FFC .

Next, home prices in many parts of Connecticut may still be higher than in the south (the cheapest region in the USA)…however this would not include many areas of coastal Florida (I have looked, and still look often). Also, I would think that home prices around Miami in an area similar to a decent suburb of Hartford, in terms of schools, safety…etc would be no cheaper. Yes there are cheaper homes near Miami in Hialeah or Miami Gardens…but take a ride through those areas and compare them to a town like Rocky Hill, East Hartford, Wethersfield…etc

Also as far as “city size”…once again there is more than meets the eye. Connecticut cities are much smaller due to the fact they have small land areas, and (like many older US cities) there was a mass movement of people out of the city into the suburbs from 1945 to 1990. So the older core cities have most of their population in the suburbs (the suburbs are actually bigger now). While in the newer regions of the USA…due to liberal annexation laws… cites just kept adding unincorapted areas to the “total city population figure”. This is why the US Census now use ‘CMSA or MSA data when analyzing population data. So while the “city” of Charlotte may be “many times the size” of Hartford…once again there is more to it than that

It breaks down like this:

Hartford, CT (city – 130,000 population) …Hartford (Metro – 1. 2 million population)

Charlotte, NC (city – 700,000 population)…Charlotte (Metro 1. 7million population)


I was comparing the suburbs of Portland, OR to the suburbs around New Haven, CT…and the data above showed that home prices are cheaper in suburban New Haven than in suburban Portland, OR. Also, while the “city” or Portland might be much bigger than the city of New Haven or Stamford…the greater NY/NJ/southern Connecticut metro is TEN times the size of the Portland, OR or Charlotte, NC. Again, it is unfair to take 'just the population of New Haven, Bridgeport, or Stamford when considering population: southern Connecticut is part of a much bigger metro area. Cities like Boston, Charoltte, or Portland, CMSA is tiny compared to the Tri-State area. Considering this…real estate might even be a better deal around southern Connecticut outside of FFC...

United States metropolitan area - Indopedia, the Indological knowledgebase)

[arielmina]

well I'm biased, but I think of Ridgefield as the quintessential New England (CT style) town. It is affordable on that salary given, won't have the nicest house in town, but yes you can have a 4 bedroom house on an acre. Other great towns that are reasonably affordable are Newtown, Southbury, Redding (though there is no "town" to speak of, you'll be using Ridgefield or Bethel as your "town". Wilton, Westport, New Canaan, etc all are great but prices will be 10-20% higher there.

[kidyankee764]

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Next, home prices in many parts of Connecticut may still be higher than in the south (the cheapest region in the USA)…however this would not include many areas of coastal Florida (I have looked, and still look often).

Also as far as “city size”…once again there is more than meets the eye. Connecticut cities are much smaller due to the fact they have small land areas, and (like many older US cities) there was a mass movement of people out of the city into the suburbs from 1945 to 1990. So the older core cities have most of their population in the suburbs (the suburbs are actually bigger now). While in the newer regions of the USA…due to liberal annexation laws… cites just kept adding unincorapted areas to the “total city population figure”. This is why the US Census now use ‘CMSA or MSA data when analyzing population data. So while the “city” of Charlotte may be “many times the size” of Hartford…once again there is more to it than that

It breaks down like this:

Hartford, CT (city – 130,000 population) …Hartford (Metro – 1. 2 million population)

Charlotte, NC (city – 700,000 population)…Charlotte (Metro 1. 7million population)


I was comparing the suburbs of Portland, OR to the suburbs around New Haven, CT…and the data above showed that home prices are cheaper in suburban New Haven than in suburban Portland, OR. Also, while the “city” or Portland might be much bigger than the city of New Haven or Stamford…the greater NY/NJ/southern Connecticut metro is TEN times the size of the Portland, OR or Charlotte, NC. Again, it is unfair to take 'just the population of New Haven, Bridgeport, or Stamford when considering population: southern Connecticut is part of a much bigger metro area. Cities like Boston, Charoltte, or Portland, CMSA is tiny compared to the Tri-State area. Considering this…real estate might even be a better deal around southern Connecticut outside of FFC...

United States metropolitan area - Indopedia, the Indological knowledgebase)

Some good information, just don't see how much of it has anything to do with real estate values.

Of course the cities in other parts of the country have larger land areas, but that just means more opportunity to find dirt cheap homes further out and commute into the city. But even in the figures you showed me, Charlotte metro still has half a million people more than Hartford. What I'm saying is that Charlotte is a huge city, with much more to do than Hartford IMO, and for what is quickly approaching a world class city, it's quite the bargain to live there (don't get me wrong, I hated it when I had to go there primarily because of certain food choices). Even as real estate has spiked in the area, equivalent homes are less than half the price. The same can be said for nearly all parts of coastal Florida, except for the keys and certain tourist areas of Sarasota/Palm Beach/Miami of course.

I'm still not sure I can agree with your claim that real estate in the rest of CT is more in line with the rest of the country. I'd also like to see what 20 states have an average price above $356k (or perhaps did I not understand this?). That seems astronomical.

[iypoon]

So, wavehunter007, since you're an expert in CT demographics, how do you think fairfield county real estate prices will fair? Will they keep going down?