[Thruway]

IF I were to take your side and say the New Haven is NOT part of the NY Metro region (and that is hypothetical) then New Haven would be part of the Hartford market...which is still NOT the Boston region.

Hartford is about a 55/45 or 60/40 (tops) split for Boston as a whole.
It is a little closer to Boston than NY which helps to explain it...but even in Southern Hartford County it is 50/50 if not more in favor of New York.

I would be inclined to say New Haven is part of the Hartford market...but I really think it is MORE a part of the NY market.
I say this because the New Haven area includes towns like Milford/Orange/Woodbridge and those are defintely a part of the NY tri state region.
There is no commuter rail to Hartford from New Haven but there is to NYC.
Further...New Haven is culturally, economically more tied to New York than Boston.

My argument is that New Haven has a lot more in common with NYC than BOS...this was not comparing New Haven to Hartford.
I will agree that New Haven probably has more in common with Hartford than NYC...but even then New Haven is MUCH more tied to NYC than Boston.
Hartford is only slightly more to Boston as it is.

To me, a fault line is an area were the split is 50/50 and were beyond it in either direction the majority begins.
New Haven is NOT the Red Sox fault line.
The Hartford County line and the CT River are.
New Haven may be the fault line between NYC and Hartford...but NOT for Yanks and Red Sox.

It just is so much closer to NYC, is so tied to NYC economically and culturally, that it makes NO SENSE that people in New Haven would consider Boston, which is the smaller, further away market, the home team.

No way.
Hartford is the fault line.
New Haven is Yankee country.
Explain to me why a city 135 miles away as opposed to 75 miles away, why a city 10 times smaller, would have MORE influence or anywhere close to the influence as the closer town?

[kidyankee764]

Originally Posted by 7 Wishes

Uh, these boundaries were changed after the 2000 census from other boundaries (i.e. New Haven was originally attached to the Hartford area, Trenton to the Philly area), it's not like they were always this way. It doesn't make sense for all your media to be tied to one area yet the Census insists you're physically instead part of one whose media you barely get. Maybe I'm wrong, but except through cable, I don't think NYC TV stations reach New Haven clearly (I know from Westchester if I use an antenna I only get ch. 8 very faintly to point it out in reverse). If other parts of the country were treated this way, I could understand, but these are the only 2 cases and they were only done in this decade, not historically. Maybe New Haven could be argued for metro NY on the basis of Metro North, but Waterbury more so is a LOT closer to Hartford than NYC (and Metro North is a branch line that is almost impossible to commute to NYC with.....switch trains, limited schedules, etc.). And Trenton is twice as far from NYC as it is from Philly.

Not worth going any crazier than this, but just wanting to point out. And I'm not pointing this out because I'm from New Haven or anything, it just seems incorrect to me.

I know that in western New Haven County (including New Haven city), the NY stations are broadcast a channel or two away from their CT affiliate. FOX5, WABC, WNBC, WCBS are all within the first 20 channels. Just throwing that out there. New Haven does have an ABC affiliate (WTNH) that offers local news, since the NY stations only broadcast higher profile CT stories. It seems silly IMO to say that a city is not part of a metro area due to television reception.

I can't say that I'm surprised New Haven is as associated with New York as it is Hartford. New Haven is only 40 miles from Hartford. From NYC, it's only 79. Given the populations of each city, (New Haven 124k, NYC 8.4 million), and consider the convenience of Metro North, it's really a no brainer as to why New Haven would be considered part of metro NYC rather than with metro Hartford. NYC is huge, and the influence radiating from that city overshadows much of CT and NJ. Even if they did just change it in 2000, people in New Haven very much associate themselves with NY. This is not to the point of calling themselves "New Yorkers" but they do share similarities.

[7 Wishes]

Originally Posted by kidyankee764

I know that in western New Haven County (including New Haven city), the NY stations are broadcast a channel or two away from their CT affiliate. FOX5, WABC, WNBC, WCBS are all within the first 20 channels. Just throwing that out there. New Haven does have an ABC affiliate (WTNH) that offers local news, since the NY stations only broadcast higher profile CT stories. It seems silly IMO to say that a city is not part of a metro area due to television reception.

I can't say that I'm surprised New Haven is as associated with New York as it is Hartford. New Haven is only 40 miles from Hartford. From NYC, it's only 79. Given the populations of each city, (New Haven 124k, NYC 8.4 million), and consider the convenience of Metro North, it's really a no brainer as to why New Haven would be considered part of metro NYC rather than with metro Hartford. NYC is huge, and the influence radiating from that city overshadows much of CT and NJ. Even if they did just change it in 2000, people in New Haven very much associate themselves with NY. This is not to the point of calling themselves "New Yorkers" but they do share similarities.

OK my last post on this, I promise.

Granted, in terms of that logic I can see New Haven in the NY metro more than I can Trenton (which is 30 miles from Philly and about 70 from NYC and Philly is a lot larger than Hartford to boot). Also, far eastern Long Island (i.e. Montauk, the Hamptons) has always been considered both NY metro and NYC Neilsen (TV market) (the former because these definitions are usually based on counties and Suffolk county covers the entire easter 2/3 of the island and the latter because it doesn't have it's own TV stations), from that logic New London could be NY metro too (HMM....maybe after the 2010 Census ).

But hey, if people want to commute 2 hours on Metro North, I'm happy to have it as part of the NY area

[Thruway]

Originally Posted by kidyankee764

I know that in western New Haven County (including New Haven city), the NY stations are broadcast a channel or two away from their CT affiliate. FOX5, WABC, WNBC, WCBS are all within the first 20 channels. Just throwing that out there. New Haven does have an ABC affiliate (WTNH) that offers local news, since the NY stations only broadcast higher profile CT stories. It seems silly IMO to say that a city is not part of a metro area due to television reception.

I can't say that I'm surprised New Haven is as associated with New York as it is Hartford. New Haven is only 40 miles from Hartford. From NYC, it's only 79. Given the populations of each city, (New Haven 124k, NYC 8.4 million), and consider the convenience of Metro North, it's really a no brainer as to why New Haven would be considered part of metro NYC rather than with metro Hartford. NYC is huge, and the influence radiating from that city overshadows much of CT and NJ. Even if they did just change it in 2000, people in New Haven very much associate themselves with NY. This is not to the point of calling themselves "New Yorkers" but they do share similarities.

Exactly....New Haven definitely has similarities to the NY metro region.
It is so much the case we are debating here if New Haven is NYC or Hartford metro.

What is NOT debatable is that New Haven has nothing in common with Boston.
It has NO ties to the area, while no doubt having ties with the NYC area.

Thus it only follows that New Haven is solidly Yankee territory.
Again....why would New Haven be the fault line when NYC is the bigger, closer, market with ties and Boston is much further, with very ties, and much smaller?

[Thruway]

Originally Posted by 7 Wishes

OK my last post on this, I promise.

Granted, in terms of that logic I can see New Haven in the NY metro more than I can Trenton (which is 30 miles from Philly and about 70 from NYC and Philly is a lot larger than Hartford to boot). Also, far eastern Long Island (i.e. Montauk, the Hamptons) has always been considered both NY metro and NYC Neilsen (TV market) (the former because these definitions are usually based on counties and Suffolk county covers the entire easter 2/3 of the island and the latter because it doesn't have it's own TV stations), from that logic New London could be NY metro too (HMM....maybe after the 2010 Census ).

But hey, if people want to commute 2 hours on Metro North, I'm happy to have it as part of the NY area

The fact is it has ties and connections to NYC, and NYC is much larger and closer than Boston...so New Haven IS NOT the fault line and is overwhelming New York Yankee country.

Hartford is different.

[7 Wishes]

Originally Posted by tberg224

Explain to me why a city 135 miles away as opposed to 75 miles away, why a city 10 times smaller, would have MORE influence or anywhere close to the influence as the closer town?

OK I didn't explain it right, I think more accurately New Haven is where you begin to see ANY amount of Red Sox Nation. I think west of it is completely NYC teams and my guess is New Haven would be (about) 80-20 in favor of Yankees, then as you go up I-91 to the Mass. line it starts getting a little more Red Sox (kind of as you're saying). But both east and west of that line is where it changes rapidly in either direction.

Another (perhaps silly) reason I don't completely consider New Haven NYC......McDonald's ends any promo tied to "metro NY" (such as test marketing those Angus Third Pounders and currently Mac Snack Wraps) at the Fairfield/New Haven county line. Again, media means something too.

But as for your distance vs. population stats theory of cultural influence. 75 miles away things other than population come into play. For one thing, media reach as I've been saying, though in this case that would be Hartford vs. NY, not Boston vs. NY. But I'll use NYC vs. Philly, 100 miles apart like NY and Hartford, but closer in pop size. Just because NYC is 4x the size of Philly doesn't mean that it is culturally "full NYC" all the way out almost to the Philadelphia city limits. Traditionally, the "full" influence of each ended where you start seeing the end of their "urban areas" (in NYC's case south of New Brunswick, in Philly's north of Trenton), and the "in-between" influence occured in that void of sorts in the middle of that. The same logic basically works for LA vs. San Diego.

It's a bit more complicated for NY vs. Boston since they are twice as far apart with a small independent media market between the two and Boston is smaller than Philly, but again, this is my take. I never thought New Haven was 50/50 Yanks/Sox like Hartford is, just where you start seeing any amount of influence.

[wavehunter007]

Having a bit of a background in demographics and marketing…let me just mention a few things on this long running rivalry:

The greater Boston (New England) area … is really a small market area compared to big American metros like NYC, LA, Chicago…etc. Because of this, Boston sports teams and Boston media (print, TV, radio.. etc.), market much more aggressively in CT (which they consider vital to survival)… than do NYC area media, sports teams…etc. In other words… NYC is so big, creates so much of its own heat and energy (worldwide)…it crushes Boston in market share in everything - all the time. Metro Boston is an area of about 6.7 million people….metro NYC is an area of 24-million people (and this only includes FFC in CT which is considered part of the NYC CSMA). Demographically…Boston teams and media are a mouse next to a 50-foot giant. NYC is the largest metropolitan area on the North American Continent…not exactly the place to be if you’re in market competition (lol).

This is why that a local store carrying one sports team merchandises over another...only shows which one needs to sell harder. Most of the younger kids on this street seem to have Yankee jackets on come October, despite most of the stores in New London County stocking Boston sports stuff over Yankee stuff 2 to 1. I take myself for example living in the Saybrook/Lyme area: I follow New York sports team (not a really big sports fan) have been to Giants Stadium, Shea Stadium, Madison Square Garden, I attend NYC events once in a while, even belong to a Long Island surfing foundation…yet I have only been to Boston a few times in my life. Most of my family live in New Haven/Middlesex/New London Counties and follow NYC news and sports teams and could care less about what goes on up in Boston. In fact, my father at 79, who has lived here in Branford, Ct his whole life…has actually never even been to Boston – only Cape Cod.

A final testament to this is LIN COMMUNTIONS in New Haven (WTNH – 8).

LIN is a Boston/Providence based TV/Communications company. I have been told by TWO different people that have worked at Channel 8 offices – that there is a intense and directed attempt by Channel 8 to stamp out anything having to do with the NYC area (news, sports, weather, events) and hype up anything Boston related (this coming from marketing headquarters up north). Channel 8 only reports on NYC sports teams because of the obvious absurdity of not doing so…but they draw the line there. They refuse to show anything having to do with the NYC area, even though southern Connecticut is obviously far more connected to the NYC area then it ever will be to Boston 150 miles to the north. Something like 13% of the Connecticut workforce is EMPLYOYED IN NYC!

Look at the silly position of the weather map on Channel 8 – Long Island (only 15-miles away) is almost off the screen. While the map shows Northern Massachusetts and Vermont (100 to 150 miles from southern CT)…as if it’s closer to WTNH. Please, someone tell Geoff Fox he would’t look so silly all the time if the area weather map had Connecticut centered (instead of down near his knees). Of course they can’t do that - because then it would show more of the closer NYC/Tri-State area… and less of the furthur Boston/New England area. If you have watched Channel 8 weather you know…they try for dear life to put a “New England spin” on our weather whenever possible. It's kind of funny when they show live pictures up in Massachusetts of a big snowstorm going on…meanwhile across most of southern Connecticut it’s raining and 44 F (lol). As long as LIN COM runs the news in southern CT Boston gets more attention. The silliness of this is that they are beating a dead horse. It only makes people watch another station.

My point is that I think Boston sports teams, media, even commercial interests have to market themselves much, much harder to survive than the NYC area has to. It’s guerrilla-marketing- pure and simple. You don’t root for the baseball team you choose .…you root for the team they MARKET TOWARD YOU. You think Jim Calhoune’s Boston/New England accent is an accident (the calmmm-caaast-tripply-play)?

Root for the sports team YOU want to. Fight the power….or in this case….. the marketing!

[7 Wishes]

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Having a bit of a background in demographics and marketing…let me just mention a few things on this long running rivalry:

The greater Boston (New England) area … is really a small market area compared to big American metros like NYC, LA, Chicago…etc. Because of this, Boston sports teams and Boston media (print, TV, radio.. etc.), market much more aggressively in CT (which they consider vital to survival)… than do NYC area media, sports teams…etc. In other words… NYC is so big, creates so much of its own heat and energy (worldwide)…it crushes Boston in market share in everything - all the time. Metro Boston is an area of about 6.7 million people….metro NYC is an area of 24-million people (and this only includes FFC in CT which is considered part of the NYC CSMA). Demographically…Boston teams and media are a mouse next to a 50-foot giant. NYC is the largest metropolitan area on the North American Continent…not exactly the place to be if you’re in market competition (lol).

This is why that a local store carrying one sports team merchandises over another...only shows which one needs to sell harder. Most of the younger kids on this street seem to have Yankee jackets on come October, despite most of the stores in New London County stocking Boston sports stuff over Yankee stuff 2 to 1. I take myself for example living in the Saybrook/Lyme area: I follow New York sports team (not a really big sports fan) have been to Giants Stadium, Shea Stadium, Madison Square Garden, I attend NYC events once in a while, even belong to a Long Island surfing foundation…yet I have only been to Boston a few times in my life. Most of my family live in New Haven/Middlesex/New London Counties and follow NYC news and sports teams and could care less about what goes on up in Boston. In fact, my father at 79, who has lived here in Branford, Ct his whole life…has actually never even been to Boston – only Cape Cod.

A final testament to this is LIN COMMUNTIONS in New Haven (WTNH – 8).

LIN is a Boston/Providence based TV/Communications company. I have been told by TWO different people that have worked at Channel 8 offices – that there is a intense and directed attempt by Channel 8 to stamp out anything having to do with the NYC area (news, sports, weather, events) and hype up anything Boston related (this coming from marketing headquarters up north). Channel 8 only reports on NYC sports teams because of the obvious absurdity of not doing so…but they draw the line there. They refuse to show anything having to do with the NYC area, even though southern Connecticut is obviously far more connected to the NYC area then it ever will be to Boston 150 miles to the north. Something like 13% of the Connecticut workforce is EMPLYOYED IN NYC!

Look at the silly position of the weather map on Channel 8 – Long Island (only 15-miles away) is almost off the screen. While the map shows Northern Massachusetts and Vermont (100 to 150 miles from southern CT)…as if it’s closer to WTNH. Please, someone tell Geoff Fox he would’t look so silly all the time if the area weather map had Connecticut centered (instead of down near his knees). Of course they can’t do that - because then it would show more of the closer NYC/Tri-State area… and less of the furthur Boston/New England area. If you have watched Channel 8 weather you know…they try for dear life to put a “New England spin” on our weather whenever possible. It's kind of funny when they show live pictures up in Massachusetts of a big snowstorm going on…meanwhile across most of southern Connecticut it’s raining and 44 F (lol). As long as LIN COM runs the news in southern CT Boston gets more attention. The silliness of this is that they are beating a dead horse. It only makes people watch another station.

My point is that I think Boston sports teams, media, even commercial interests have to market themselves much, much harder to survive than the NYC area has to. It’s guerrilla-marketing- pure and simple. You don’t root for the baseball team you choose .…you root for the team they MARKET TOWARD YOU. You think Jim Calhoune’s Boston/New England accent is an accident (the calmmm-caaast-tripply-play)?

Root for the sports team YOU want to. Fight the power….or in this case….. the marketing!

Good post! I bet Geoff Fox if he notices that doesn't like the map that way, he's a native NYer! (Born and raised in Queens!).

[Thruway]

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Having a bit of a background in demographics and marketing…let me just mention a few things on this long running rivalry:

The greater Boston (New England) area … is really a small market area compared to big American metros like NYC, LA, Chicago…etc. Because of this, Boston sports teams and Boston media (print, TV, radio.. etc.), market much more aggressively in CT (which they consider vital to survival)… than do NYC area media, sports teams…etc. In other words… NYC is so big, creates so much of its own heat and energy (worldwide)…it crushes Boston in market share in everything - all the time. Metro Boston is an area of about 6.7 million people….metro NYC is an area of 24-million people (and this only includes FFC in CT which is considered part of the NYC CSMA). Demographically…Boston teams and media are a mouse next to a 50-foot giant. NYC is the largest metropolitan area on the North American Continent…not exactly the place to be if you’re in market competition (lol).

This is why that a local store carrying one sports team merchandises over another...only shows which one needs to sell harder. Most of the younger kids on this street seem to have Yankee jackets on come October, despite most of the stores in New London County stocking Boston sports stuff over Yankee stuff 2 to 1. I take myself for example living in the Saybrook/Lyme area: I follow New York sports team (not a really big sports fan) have been to Giants Stadium, Shea Stadium, Madison Square Garden, I attend NYC events once in a while, even belong to a Long Island surfing foundation…yet I have only been to Boston a few times in my life. Most of my family live in New Haven/Middlesex/New London Counties and follow NYC news and sports teams and could care less about what goes on up in Boston. In fact, my father at 79, who has lived here in Branford, Ct his whole life…has actually never even been to Boston – only Cape Cod.

A final testament to this is LIN COMMUNTIONS in New Haven (WTNH – 8).

LIN is a Boston/Providence based TV/Communications company. I have been told by TWO different people that have worked at Channel 8 offices – that there is a intense and directed attempt by Channel 8 to stamp out anything having to do with the NYC area (news, sports, weather, events) and hype up anything Boston related (this coming from marketing headquarters up north). Channel 8 only reports on NYC sports teams because of the obvious absurdity of not doing so…but they draw the line there. They refuse to show anything having to do with the NYC area, even though southern Connecticut is obviously far more connected to the NYC area then it ever will be to Boston 150 miles to the north. Something like 13% of the Connecticut workforce is EMPLYOYED IN NYC!

Look at the silly position of the weather map on Channel 8 – Long Island (only 15-miles away) is almost off the screen. While the map shows Northern Massachusetts and Vermont (100 to 150 miles from southern CT)…as if it’s closer to WTNH. Please, someone tell Geoff Fox he would’t look so silly all the time if the area weather map had Connecticut centered (instead of down near his knees). Of course they can’t do that - because then it would show more of the closer NYC/Tri-State area… and less of the furthur Boston/New England area. If you have watched Channel 8 weather you know…they try for dear life to put a “New England spin” on our weather whenever possible. It's kind of funny when they show live pictures up in Massachusetts of a big snowstorm going on…meanwhile across most of southern Connecticut it’s raining and 44 F (lol). As long as LIN COM runs the news in southern CT Boston gets more attention. The silliness of this is that they are beating a dead horse. It only makes people watch another station.

My point is that I think Boston sports teams, media, even commercial interests have to market themselves much, much harder to survive than the NYC area has to. It’s guerrilla-marketing- pure and simple. You don’t root for the baseball team you choose .…you root for the team they MARKET TOWARD YOU. You think Jim Calhoune’s Boston/New England accent is an accident (the calmmm-caaast-tripply-play)?

Root for the sports team YOU want to. Fight the power….or in this case….. the marketing!

I've heard this before and I won't watch channel 8 because of this.
I think most people in Southern CT watch the NY stations anyway...why not....NY or Hartford...which one would you take?

It is as I said...a media conspiracy that because CT is a "New England" state it must be aligned with Boston when in fact CT is a "New York" tri state and easily has more in common in many places with NY.

[Thruway]

Originally Posted by 7 Wishes

OK I didn't explain it right, I think more accurately New Haven is where you begin to see ANY amount of Red Sox Nation. I think west of it is completely NYC teams and my guess is New Haven would be (about) 80-20 in favor of Yankees, then as you go up I-91 to the Mass. line it starts getting a little more Red Sox (kind of as you're saying). But both east and west of that line is where it changes rapidly in either direction.

Another (perhaps silly) reason I don't completely consider New Haven NYC......McDonald's ends any promo tied to "metro NY" (such as test marketing those Angus Third Pounders and currently Mac Snack Wraps) at the Fairfield/New Haven county line. Again, media means something too.

But as for your distance vs. population stats theory of cultural influence. 75 miles away things other than population come into play. For one thing, media reach as I've been saying, though in this case that would be Hartford vs. NY, not Boston vs. NY. But I'll use NYC vs. Philly, 100 miles apart like NY and Hartford, but closer in pop size. Just because NYC is 4x the size of Philly doesn't mean that it is culturally "full NYC" all the way out almost to the Philadelphia city limits. Traditionally, the "full" influence of each ended where you start seeing the end of their "urban areas" (in NYC's case south of New Brunswick, in Philly's north of Trenton), and the "in-between" influence occured in that void of sorts in the middle of that. The same logic basically works for LA vs. San Diego.

It's a bit more complicated for NY vs. Boston since they are twice as far apart with a small independent media market between the two and Boston is smaller than Philly, but again, this is my take. I never thought New Haven was 50/50 Yanks/Sox like Hartford is, just where you start seeing any amount of influence.

We agree completely.
New Haven is were you start to see some (a few) of the Sox fans but it still is Yankee Country.
Hartford County/CT River is the true fault line.
Branford/Guilford/Madison/Wallingford/Meriden is still Yankee country.

As for the media, keep in mind most towns in New Haven County get NY's NBC/CBS/FOX/ABC....and in fact Middletown, CT gets NY's FOX.