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It isn't really "helping." If you run a store and sell an item for $2.50, would a wholesaler charging you $2.50 for that same item while lounging around in your office at all hours be considered "helping?" You don't make any extra money whatsoever in the transaction and in the end, it actually ends up costing you money.
If a utility company can purchase electricity for roughly $0.03-$0.04 a kilowatt hour but have to compensate you $0.18 per kilowatt hour during peak times, with no allowance for the costs of maintaining and updating the grid, how can they sustain that system long-term without raising rates?
Also, between the most critical hours of 6-9 PM on weekdays, when power use is at its highest, there's very little to no power being provided by solar power so utilities still have to continue to run their systems at full blast, meaning no savings to them, at the end of the month, they end up losing money on solar customers, meaning that when they go before the corporation commission or state utility regulatory board, they're going to include those losses in any rate hike proposal which will more adversely affect those without solar and of lower income than anyone else.
So once more, where is the justification for forcing those with lower incomes to subsidize the upper middle class and wealthy?
I do support a fair-use fee, nothing punitive or extreme, but enough to cover maintenance of the grid which solar users still rely on but generally don't pay for. If the grid goes down, we all lose power, whether you have solar or not, why should only some of the population pay for maintaining it? Make it something like $10-15 a month and that should cover it pretty well for most utilities. Once more, if you have an off-grid solar system and do not rely on the grid whatsoever, these fees should not apply to you because you are essentially being self-sufficient for your power needs.
Grid power comes in many types. And peak power is the most expensive. In general the intent is that you accept power from home generation at the same rate you are charging for that power.
And it does save the power company significant money.. Peak power is generally supplied by certain cheap but expensive to run facilities that are established just to cover peak needs. And in Phoenix, as in Vegas, they do not occur between 6 and 9 PM but mostly coincide with the peak of sun radiance. So in at least the hot SW the timing of solar panels is just about right on. So the utility has to maintain a surge capability to deal with say a dust storm. But it is normally not run and saves the operating costs.
There will eventually have to be some accommodation by the solar panel users to maintain the grid. Probably a fixed fee for the connection. But that should be a relatively small item.
In LA peak time power is getting up over $0.50 per KWhour. At those rates of course solar will pay. And I see power rate programs of that sort becoming common in the SW. Actually NevadaEnergy is offering such programs though they are elective.
Passive solar heat exchangers are very cost effective, especially for the DIY person. We have a self built 4x8 panel heating our hot tub.Aluminum Solar Absorbers - U.P. Solar Solutions Yes, living in the woods we did remove a few large oak trees to gain exposure. We probably can't see a reasonable payback for a true photovoltaic panel here in the northwoods. (The link has a picture of interest, I have no commercial interest in the site.) The site shows a neighbor who uses both wind and solar to supplement heating a large home and workshop.
Grid power comes in many types. And peak power is the most expensive. In general the intent is that you accept power from home generation at the same rate you are charging for that power.
And it does save the power company significant money.. Peak power is generally supplied by certain cheap but expensive to run facilities that are established just to cover peak needs. And in Phoenix, as in Vegas, they do not occur between 6 and 9 PM but mostly coincide with the peak of sun radiance. So in at least the hot SW the timing of solar panels is just about right on. So the utility has to maintain a surge capability to deal with say a dust storm. But it is normally not run and saves the operating costs.
This is not accurate. I've already confirmed with APS that their periods of highest use are between 6 and 8 PM in Phoenix. This is pretty much standard throughout the U.S., people get home, they want to cook, turn on all the lights, turn on the television, run the laundry, do the dishes..etc..etc. In Phoenix you're still going to be cranking your A/C at 6PM and onwards in the summer generally, so as your inverter is shutting down and your solar system output is nil, the utility has to continue running their systems to maintain grid stability as all that solar power production comes offline.
In the end, the only way solar saves the utilities money is perhaps allowing them to hold off building new power generation facilities but since we were in a recession, with a ton of foreclosures like other places in the SW, average electricity consumption went down in general, further setting back the need for any sort of new upgrades for many years.
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There will eventually have to be some accommodation by the solar panel users to maintain the grid. Probably a fixed fee for the connection. But that should be a relatively small item.
At least in Arizona, there already will be, and justifiably so. Once again, I support solar, I just don't like the idea of people having it while their neighbors subsidize it for them.
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In LA peak time power is getting up over $0.50 per KWhour. At those rates of course solar will pay. And I see power rate programs of that sort becoming common in the SW. Actually NevadaEnergy is offering such programs though they are elective.
Which of course is absurdly expensive and why "shaver systems" which knock you down a tier or two are so popular in California. However that is not the norm or even close.
In Arizona, on peak you're looking at $0.20 a kilowatt hour for high peak usage. For solar to achieve grid parity, you need roughly anywhere from $0.25 to $0.30 cents a kilowatt hour, average regular cost of electricity.
Its essentially achieved grid parity in Hawaii and is close to doing so in California but those are still outliers, for many other states the average cost of electricity runs about $0.09 to $0.11 per kilowatt hour, not close enough to bridge the gap without hefty incentives and tax credits.
This is of course nonsense. Whether you do or do not install a solar panel system on your home, the utility company still has to keep their generators running, the idea that installing solar panels being good for the environment is laughable in present time. Until we have more reliable battery backup systems, installing solar on your home is irrelevant as long as the utility continues running their coal or natural gas power generation at the same rate. As mentioned before, the highest demand times are between 6-9 PM on weekdays, at a time when your solar power system is producing jack crap generally, how is having solar beneficial during those hours?
Clearly not your strong point. I don't mind educating.
In the US, the highest peak times are in the summer between 1PM and 6PM. These are the warmest hours and the hours in which the usage of AC is at peak, along with an overlapping with offices being open. This is also the time when solar panels are most effective.
While you're completely wrong, that's not the point. The point is that if everyone stopped being selfish and got solar panels, then power plants would need to produce less power. Power plans do spin up and down based on demand. Look into peak power plans.
Look, my average electric bill for a 2440 sq ft house is around 125 a month. If you really think you can convince me to spend upwards of 20k of MY money to shave a cool 12.00 off my electric bill you must surely realize how illogical that is.
I also have a lot of tall trees here (keeps us cool in the summer) I'd have to cut down further adding to the cost and hurting precious mother Earth in the process.
Solar is a bad choice for many Americans, until YOU start paying for other peoples solar conversion I cannot take you very seriously.
I think you mentioned earlier your obsession with money. The benefit is in clean air. It amazes me how selfish people are. Especially when money is an unlimited resource in the US.
I think you mentioned earlier your obsession with money. The benefit is in clean air. It amazes me how selfish people are. Especially when money is an unlimited resource in the US.
I forgot I was dealing with a liberal...other peoples money is infinite for you.
I'm happy to let you pay for my solar system if it helps you sleep at night.
Deal?
Also lulz at "obsession with money". I'll just drop 20k on a solar system to please a random person from New Doizey, no big deal.
The arrogance of environmentalists is almost as off-putting as their disconnect from reality.
Clearly not your strong point. I don't mind educating.
In the US, the highest peak times are in the summer between 1PM and 6PM. These are the warmest hours and the hours in which the usage of AC is at peak, along with an overlapping with offices being open. This is also the time when solar panels are most effective.
I worked in the solar industry for almost a decade, don't try to tell me to do my job. In Arizona, the highest use times are between 6-8 PM during weekdays, feel free to call up APS and confirm for yourself. That is one of the main issues utilities have brought up about solar being intermittent, they can't rely on the power because when they need it most, it simply isn't there.
Also, sunlight, just like wind, in its nature is intermittent, you can't consistently predict when a cloudy day occurs or how long it will last and when it does, your going to see a crash in the grid if there is no backbone that is otherwise supplying power. This is why solar will never be more than a gimmick unless some sort of affordable power storage system can be developed, molten salt, as used in the concentrated solar plant in Gila Bend, is still too expensive to be widely utilized, and concentrated solar requires far too much land at this point to be fully effective. PV solar used residentially has reached high efficiency levels, but even with that, the theoretical efficiency limit runs anywhere 30-35%, with current cells reaching efficiencies as high as 25%. Concentrated solar, in a lab situation, had reached efficiencies as high as 45%, but that of course is not feasible to be used on a residential or even small commercial site.
In Germany, the country with the highest concentration of solar power, as green as they are....what are they building and put into commission currently? Coal plants. Yes, dirty evil coal. Why? Because solar is too intermittent to be dependable, especially in a nation cloudy as theirs, they will always require some sort of on-demand source for power that they can tap and because of Fukushima, they are moving away from nuclear and moving back to coal power. Unless there is some major breakthrough, we will always need a stable source of power, whether it be nuclear, coal, natural gas, Thorium nuclear or otherwise, renewables can't prop up the grid alone unless you enjoy daily blackouts and pretending like you live in Venezuela.
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While you're completely wrong, that's not the point. The point is that if everyone stopped being selfish and got solar panels, then power plants would need to produce less power. Power plans do spin up and down based on demand. Look into peak power plans.
Selfish? Go tell a middle class family that is barely getting by that they are being selfish by not dropping $20,000 on a solar system. Selfish? The vast majority of those who purchase solar systems are well in the upper income levels. My customers all had good financial means or extremely high credit ratings, the vast majority of solar that I sold in Arizona was concentrated in a limited amount of higher-income areas. The vast majority in wealthy retirement areas. Selfish? You're absolutely nuts. For the vast majority of people here in the Phoenix area, solar is just a pipe dream and largely unaffordable. Virtually every customer I met with had a combined income into the six figures, so basically we're subsidizing solar systems so that those who can already afford them, can pay less for them.
A couple years ago there was crazy pricing on lease programs, but of course that was only made possible due to the leasing companies essentially cooking their books, charging the customer one price, and then jacking up the cost when presenting it to the federal government for their 1603 Grant, especially ripping off taxpayers. This is the reason why SolarCity is still being audited by the Treasury along with others.
Beyond that, in an era where many have lost their homes to foreclosures, or struggled to make ends meet, calling people selfish for not being able to afford something with a 15 year ROI in Arizona, who the heck are you to judge people that you don't even know?
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You have to look at the aggregate.
You have to start using common sense and stop lecturing someone who knows quite better than you do.
Peak usage is virtually always centered on 4 PM. In fact the AZ time of day plan uses 3 to 6 pm as the peak period. I don't think there is any question that distributed solar is helpful in limiting peak power. It enables the use of relatively inexpensive peaking equipment such as gas turbines as long as the do not get much use.
the 6 to 8 pm peak is classical in the east on a year round basis but even there it peaks around 4PM in the summer.
Given installed costs of under a dollar per watt you are going to see a large expansion of solar in the SW. The economics of the situation will be overpowering. Phoenix, Las Vegas and Albuquerque are absolutely the places that go first.
I'm happy to let you pay for my solar system if it helps you sleep at night.
Deal?
Ofcourse you liberals are happy to have someone else pay for your solar system.
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Originally Posted by Kreutz
Also lulz at "obsession with money". I'll just drop 20k on a solar system to please a random person from New Doizey, no big deal.
You wouldn't be pleasing me. It's 'Jersey', btw. They don't teach you about the 13 colonies where you're from?
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