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Old 12-10-2013, 11:58 AM
 
4,881 posts, read 4,855,564 times
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There was a report on the news regarding the $15.00 per hour. That is a beginning figure as part of the bargaining process
which doesn't necessarily mean they will get that. Even if they do receive that amount (which I think is unlikely) the cost
of a big burger at McDonald's would only increase 50 cents.
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
453 posts, read 519,989 times
Reputation: 666
Okay, time to explain a few concepts here:

1. The belief that everyone who is working 40 hours per week should be able to have a basic life on that income isn't a generational thing limited to people in their twenties. I believe it too, and I'm a Baby Boomer who grew up with the idea that you work for what you get. But the flip side of "working for what you get" is that if you work, you should actually get something that matters. Does that mean I think the guy flipping burgers at Mickey D's or stocking the shelves at your local big-box store needs to be paid the same as a chemical engineer? Of course not. But he should be paid enough that if he works 40 hours a week and is single he can afford a one-bedroom apartment or half the cost of a 2-bedroom in a safe neighborhood in his town (not a tony neighborhood, just a safe one that doesn't have crack houses on every corner) and still have enough money left over to buy groceries (meat, produce and bread, not a dozen packs of ramen noodles) and pay for utilities (heating gas, electricity, phone, etc.). That's a pretty basic existence; I'm not talking 400-channel satellite television service and a 50-inch HDTV, an Xbox with a copy of every new game and $300 brand-name sneakers. I'm talking a roof over one's head, heat and light, a communication line to the outside world and food that actually provides nutrition rather than empty calories. If he can access those things, maybe he'll be able to use them as a springboard to moving up in the world, learning new skills and eventually getting a better-paying job. It's hard to move forward when you spend nearly all your waking hours just worrying about not falling backward.

But it starts with the basics, and he should be able to have those on the strength of what he's paid for his own work right now, NOT by virtue of my tax dollars having to supply him with food stamps and subsidized housing so that the corporation that employs him can make billions of dollars by paying its workers next to nothing.

Yeah, I'm old-school. Deal with it.

2. Yes, barring some calamity or misfortune you should work for what you get. But that implies that if you work, you should get something of actual value in return. A full-time job should allow a person to live a basic life at its lowest wage. If that isn't possible, then the lowest wage is set too low for the market in which it's being paid. If a person doesn't work just because they flat-out don't want to, then sure, I'm not going to say they should be given everything. But if a person is working full-time, then they should be able to live on it. Not in the lap of luxury -- that isn't guaranteed to anyone. But safely and with enough to eat to stay healthy.

I sometimes think the problem with people in this country lately is that too many of them are so insecure they can't feel good about their lives unless they know someone else is miserable.
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:12 PM
 
3,945 posts, read 3,265,568 times
Reputation: 11331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
A "living wage" is an excuse for the choices people make that limit their ability to earn a better income.

"Earn" and "living wage" are rarely if ever used together.

We've managed to convince an entire generation, through an education experiment that there is no such thing as reward for winning, one need only demonstrate an effort and that is good enough to get the trophy. These kids grew up with liberal minds hand holding them every step of the way to make sure they couldn't think for themselves, only think what they are told.

Now we have people what work in a fast food business and think flipping burgers is worth $15 per hour. Why do better when you can just manage to live on the wages at a fast food place? Don't strive for better, just demand more for the least effort.

Naturally, the proponents of the everyone is entitled to a living wage will always manage to excuse a person's lack of improvement on someone else, some company or (drum roll please...) the republicans. Never mind that it is they who instilled the lack of motivation and incentive upon others through education system experimentation.

The same people who lead the charge for the "living wage" are also the same people with millions and billions of wealth at their disposal yet do little more than tell others they should be happy with a "living wage" instead of doing something about their condition to improve it.
Methinks Mac is a little out of touch with the present day economic reality in America. Holy Cow Batman, FIFTEEN dollars an hour??? These wage demanders are, in Mac's mind just whiners of the new age of workers who can't make it on the once decent amount of ten dollars an hour. Well, anyone capable of doing the math knows that good wages are the bedrock of a rising economy, a completely different animal than that of a rising profit. Smaller profits mean a wider distribution of money period. Most of America is not making good wages, BUT MOST OF AMERICA'S CEO'S are. Why not see that the "real lacking" in self improvement includes a lacking of a compassionate view toward your fellow man??

What about the phrase, "flipping burgers", does anyone else hear a faint reference of disdain here?? The overall work expectations of anyone in any portion of the food service business requires a personal regimen of discipline, a good work ethic, a comprehensive knowledge of team work dynamics, AND the ability to withstand the onslaught of attacks on your credibility by the likes of people like Mac. I for one, am getting real tired of these high moralists pontificating on the stage of judgmental theatrics, as if THEY are in a position to tell us what THEY think is a justifiable compensation value for all work. At today's prices in the fast food business (especially after looking at the huge profits generated) who could possibly find a reason to denigrate, or underpay, the workers of one of America's biggest business success stories?
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:22 PM
 
8,224 posts, read 10,793,715 times
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Where do people get this "everyone should afford most things" on a 40 hr work week from?

If you can't afford to live making minimum wage on 40 hrs a week,work more hours maybe?

I make more than minimum wage,yet i know for my survival I MUST work at least 70/hrs a week. I don't go crying that I should make more.


What sense would it make,if burger flippers make 15/hr,yet our Cna's(nurse aides) and even some nurses make less than 15/hr?
The kicker? They of course went to some actual school to get certified and have certificates and licenses.

Some burger flippers don't even have a high school diploma
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:24 PM
 
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I guess I just don't like the fact the emphasis in on fast food workers when many others who make minimum wage actaully are deserving of more money(like nurses aides who care for our elderly)
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
453 posts, read 519,989 times
Reputation: 666
I don't think anyone is more 'deserving' of being able to afford a basic life on the basis of where they work. EVERYONE deserves to be able to pay for the basics on a 40-hour week, and that includes you, jerseygal4u. There's no good reason why you should have to work 70 hours a week just to put a roof over your head and food on the table. If it takes 70 hours to have that plus a lot of extras, that's a different story, but in a modern first-world nation, no one -- especially a single person with no dependents -- should have to expect to work 70-hour weeks just to have the basics.

This means the people at McDonald's, the people at Walmart, the people caring for elderly or kids or doing anything else. All of them need and deserve more than $7 or $8 per hour.

$7 or $8 per hour is a wage that should only be paid to kids under 18 who are still in school, living with their parents, and just working a few hours a week so they can afford to go out on dates or to the prom. Adults who are trying to build or rebuild their lives and careers need more, or else we're just pretending that work is anything other than a way to keep people busy without providing them a genuine material benefit.
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,697 posts, read 23,676,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
Where do people get this "everyone should afford most things" on a 40 hr work week from?

If you can't afford to live making minimum wage on 40 hrs a week,work more hours maybe?

I make more than minimum wage,yet i know for my survival I MUST work at least 70/hrs a week. I don't go crying that I should make more.


What sense would it make,if burger flippers make 15/hr,yet our Cna's(nurse aides) and even some nurses make less than 15/hr?
The kicker? They of course went to some actual school to get certified and have certificates and licenses.

Some burger flippers don't even have a high school diploma
I understand what you are saying but not everyone can take care of the elderly or can become nurses. Is it fair to penalize them for that? And there are those who might have those degrees but cannot find jobs in their fields for whatever reasons.

I have two college degrees but I have done my share of waitressing, car hopping, file clerking and just about any type of job there is while those degrees hung on my wall. Whatever I did I took pride in. It's funny too but whatever job I did, even a fairly prestigious office job there was always someone who looked down their nose at my work who felt it wasn't worthy. Like attorneys who looked down at paralegals. Or in the case of the medical profession, doctors look down at nurses according to my nurse friends. Or cooks who look down at dishwashers.

There are always going to be people who look down on other people by virtue of their jobs and virtue of their paychecks. But that doesn't make anyone any more valuable as a human being. Sure a doctor's job is worth more than a hamburger flipper but that hamburger flipper is worth as much as he or she can get. And if that is $15.00 an hour, that's fine with me.

If that encourages more people to want to flip burgers, that's okay too. All the people like retirees trying to make their SS checks go farther, people trying to support their families while looking for better paying jobs, students trying to make their way through college, high school kids looking for summer jobs or just those who want to flip burgers as a career should be able to earn as much as they can get just as anyone else should without a stigma attached.
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Old 12-10-2013, 02:01 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,880,520 times
Reputation: 11420
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Methinks Mac is a little out of touch with the present day economic reality in America. Holy Cow Batman, FIFTEEN dollars an hour??? These wage demanders are, in Mac's mind just whiners of the new age of workers who can't make it on the once decent amount of ten dollars an hour. Well, anyone capable of doing the math knows that good wages are the bedrock of a rising economy, a completely different animal than that of a rising profit. Smaller profits mean a wider distribution of money period. Most of America is not making good wages, BUT MOST OF AMERICA'S CEO'S are. Why not see that the "real lacking" in self improvement includes a lacking of a compassionate view toward your fellow man??

What about the phrase, "flipping burgers", does anyone else hear a faint reference of disdain here?? The overall work expectations of anyone in any portion of the food service business requires a personal regimen of discipline, a good work ethic, a comprehensive knowledge of team work dynamics, AND the ability to withstand the onslaught of attacks on your credibility by the likes of people like Mac. I for one, am getting real tired of these high moralists pontificating on the stage of judgmental theatrics, as if THEY are in a position to tell us what THEY think is a justifiable compensation value for all work. At today's prices in the fast food business (especially after looking at the huge profits generated) who could possibly find a reason to denigrate, or underpay, the workers of one of America's biggest business success stories?
They will be replaced with automation. End of story. Working at a fast food eatery ISN'T designed to be the 40 hour job to support your basic living needs. It was designed as part time work for people entering a work force or going to school or supplementing income. All of a sudden it means a career and a demand for $15?

Eliminate them with automation. It is possible. Otherwise, they have a choice don't they? They can work elsewhere doing something else. Since when is their choice the responsibility of anyone else but them?

Out of touch is making others deal with your personal choice. No one gets drafted to work in the fast food industry and everyone who does can work hard, gain education and experience and get a better job in that very industry making more money.
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Old 12-10-2013, 02:14 PM
 
8,224 posts, read 10,793,715 times
Reputation: 7621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
I understand what you are saying but not everyone can take care of the elderly or can become nurses. Is it fair to penalize them for that? And there are those who might have those degrees but cannot find jobs in their fields for whatever reasons.

I have two college degrees but I have done my share of waitressing, car hopping, file clerking and just about any type of job there is while those degrees hung on my wall. Whatever I did I took pride in. It's funny too but whatever job I did, even a fairly prestigious office job there was always someone who looked down their nose at my work who felt it wasn't worthy. Like attorneys who looked down at paralegals. Or in the case of the medical profession, doctors look down at nurses according to my nurse friends. Or cooks who look down at dishwashers.

There are always going to be people who look down on other people by virtue of their jobs and virtue of their paychecks. But that doesn't make anyone any more valuable as a human being. Sure a doctor's job is worth more than a hamburger flipper but that hamburger flipper is worth as much as he or she can get. And if that is $15.00 an hour, that's fine with me.

If that encourages more people to want to flip burgers, that's okay too. All the people like retirees trying to make their SS checks go farther, people trying to support their families while looking for better paying jobs, students trying to make their way through college, high school kids looking for summer jobs or just those who want to flip burgers as a career should be able to earn as much as they can get just as anyone else should without a stigma attached.
I know everyone can't take care of the elderly,but I'm sorry,they deserve WAYYYY more than burger flippers(I hate that word,not sure what to put)
Now,that doesn't mean I look my nose down at fast food workers though.
I generally find fast food workers to be pleasant for the most part,not like cashiers, who seem to have attitudes.
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Old 12-10-2013, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Sector 001
7,242 posts, read 6,472,873 times
Reputation: 8290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
If you think flipping burgers is so easy, I have to ask, have you ever done it? I don't think it shows a lack of ambition. Many people do that job while writing books, acting in the theater, doing art work or doing other jobs that pay little or next to nothing but are very creative.

There are lots of white collar jobs that don't pay more that $15.00 an hour. Are they any better than flipping burgers? I don't think so. Ambition doesn't always equal a big paycheck. The idea that a "lowly job" should equal lowly pay is baloney. It just perpetuates low paying jobs.

Some people just like flipping burgers for a living. There is nothing wrong with that. Someone has to do it. If that makes them happy, who is to say they should want more? That is an elitist attitude in my book. Why should that job be considered not doing better? A job is a job. Taking pride in what one does, whatever that job is should be the main thing.

Yep... more power to them. The people who are 'higher up' in the world or so they would like to think, who bash on burger flippers and grocery workers can keep feeling good about themselves... retail is no fun and if those employees want to band together to try to get higher wages I support them... the old fashioned 'union'
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