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Old 12-11-2013, 05:43 AM
 
8,226 posts, read 10,830,581 times
Reputation: 7623

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
Doesn't need? How do you know what a worker needs? How many jobs have you had in which "most workers get raises?" Show me proof. From my experience, working at many jobs in different capacities and not being in the rarefied world of teaching I can say that few people get steady raises and regular intervals.

Compared to office workers, which I was for decades and with a college degree, teachers earn a very good salary. I don't know when you began teaching but I suspect it was at a time when $26,500 was better than most office workers with or without a degree. Same old same old. Teachers constantly whining everyone did better than they. The reality is few people ever get the opportunity to pay into a pension. Many don't get a savings plan. Raises are certainly not the norm for many office employees with or without degrees. They are usually sporadic and not very large unless the employee is in a union. Unions are usually what buys teachers their good benefits, not their degrees.

The point is, no one has the right to say who needs what kind of salary. That is the height of ridiculousness. What about the laid off teacher, of whom there were 400 in a Portland suburb a few years ago as an example, looking for work, trying to support a family desperate for any work getting that fast food job and grateful for it? Are you that arrogant you would say he didn't "deserve" $15.00 an hour?

What happens when your "Professional" has to do a minimum wage job because that is all he or she can get? Does that make his or her worth any less? It is happening all the time. Does that make the job more valuable or the person less valuable? I suggest you rent the documentary "American Winter" and learn something about today's world and the job situation.
I'm an Rn,and I don't get a raise,a 401k,and only 2 weeks of PTO a yr,no sick days,and within 4 yrs I had to take a $4 pay cut.
I also have to pay $600 a month toward health insurance.
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Old 12-11-2013, 05:52 AM
 
8,226 posts, read 10,830,581 times
Reputation: 7623
Off topic,but what makes people think teenagers don't need more than $7 or $8 an hr? What makes people think they are going to blow it on the prom,dates,and clothes? Many teens have to contrbute to the family bills.

You can't pay someone less because they are a teen,or don't have a family,that is discrimination.
When I was teen making minimum wage,I had to pay rent,buy groceries,and other things which had nothing to do with buying clothes. I had no kids either.
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:07 AM
 
642 posts, read 866,192 times
Reputation: 979
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
Off topic,but what makes people think teenagers don't need more than $7 or $8 an hr? What makes people think they are going to blow it on the prom,dates,and clothes? Many teens have to contrbute to the family bills.

You can't pay someone less because they are a teen,or don't have a family,that is discrimination.
When I was teen making minimum wage,I had to pay rent,buy groceries,and other things which had nothing to do with buying clothes. I had no kids either.
What the masses don't understand is the economy at its core is based on supply and demand. Any increase in wages especially from $8-$15 will cause jobs to be outsourced, jobs to be lost, jobs to be replaced. That means if you think 8% for unemployment was the new normal, try 10 or even 12%. I wouldnt be suprised if the 'real' unemployment rate jumps to 25%. Once you take away profit margins, you take away jobs. So what do you want 3 people with a job at $8/hr or 1 person with a job at $15?

Yea sure now 1 person can eat a little better but you just threw 2 people on their *** with NOTHING! These people are digging their own graves, but they are too uneducated to realize it (hence why they work at McDonalds).
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:20 AM
 
Location: Northeast Ohio
319 posts, read 384,435 times
Reputation: 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbradleyc View Post
I am not fortunate. I earned this. I searched until I found the right situation and it was hard.

My company is constantly growing. Openings happen all the time. No one is left without opportunity. They just have to make it happen.
Again, no one is saying you DON'T work hard or that you DIDN'T earn whatever you have.

But:
1. Your bosses apparently thought enough of you that they hired you not once, but twice.
2. Customers think enough of your company to shop there enough to make it grow.
3. Your health held up enough that you were able to come in day after day and work hard.

It's human nature to want to take credit for our successes and to blame outside forces for our failures. But many times, you can make all the right choices, and still can't catch a break. We all know people like this. That's the story of many of these fast-food workers and other people stuck in low-paying service work, including many at your own company.

I'm pretty sure most of us on this thread aren't celebrities, Wall Street tycoons, or Fortune 500 CEOs. We're a lot more alike than we are different, and the sooner we all realize that, the better.

Strike on, workers!
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Places you dream of
20,344 posts, read 12,195,112 times
Reputation: 8830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red3311 View Post
What the masses don't understand is the economy at its core is based on supply and demand. Any increase in wages especially from $8-$15 will cause jobs to be outsourced, jobs to be lost, jobs to be replaced. That means if you think 8% for unemployment was the new normal, try 10 or even 12%. I wouldnt be suprised if the 'real' unemployment rate jumps to 25%. Once you take away profit margins, you take away jobs. So what do you want 3 people with a job at $8/hr or 1 person with a job at $15?

Yea sure now 1 person can eat a little better but you just threw 2 people on their *** with NOTHING! These people are digging their own graves, but they are too uneducated to realize it (hence why they work at McDonalds).
((Any increase in wages especially from $8-$15 will cause jobs to be outsourced, jobs to be lost, jobs to be replaced))

They have been doing that anyhow!-- all this means is the 1% maybe have to give up one lobster a week to pay for higher wages. - I have seen both sides of the spectrum and the very wealthy burn money just waking up to go pee- they can afford it if they give up some of the profits, but they are too greedy.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Ohio
20,052 posts, read 14,306,500 times
Reputation: 16212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
A "living wage" is an excuse for the choices people make that limit their ability to earn a better income.

"Earn" and "living wage" are rarely if ever used together.

We've managed to convince an entire generation, through an education experiment that there is no such thing as reward for winning, one need only demonstrate an effort and that is good enough to get the trophy. . . .
Well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
If you think flipping burgers is so easy, I have to ask, have you ever done it?
Off topic and irrelevant, and yes, I worked at Wendy's part-time through high school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dissenter View Post
Many people also do that job because that is the ONLY job they can actually get offered to them.
And the message is what?

That would be like a big hint to acquire more skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dissenter View Post
While I was unemployed in KY, I didn't even bother applying for minimum wage jobs because with what I would be spending for gas to get to some of them, I would maybe be gaining $100 every 2 weeeks.
You're part of The Problem™.

I'm not obligated to subsidize your Life-Style. That's your job, and if you need to move closer to work, then that is what you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dissenter View Post
I think it is pathetic that with the fast-rising COL and inflation the minimum wage is still under $10 while the CEOs on top are sitting on millions.
What you think is meaningless, since it is trumped by the Laws of Economics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
If there is even a two dollar an hour increase in wages you will see a notable number of people lose their jobs at the lowest end of retail IE fast food.
That is not true at all.

To the extent that there might be some truth, it depends on which one of the 1,539 separately functioning economies you're referring.

In the Cincinnati MSA and inclusive MMSAs, there would be no job losses in fast-food, since fast-food workers already start at $8.50-$9.00/hour with a $0.25-$0.50 increase in the first 90 to 180 days after hire (plus benefits).

The Laws of Economics reign supreme and dictate everything.

In the Cincinnati MSA, you will pay fast-food employees starting wages of $8.50-$9.00/hour or you will go out of business.

It's just that simple.

So, a $2 increase to $9/hour in the "federal" minimum wage would have no effect.

However....

...a $2 increase would kill warehouse jobs in the Cincinnati MSA, since the Laws of Economics dictate that warehouse workers start at $7.25-$7.50/hour.

That would cause anywhere from 3 to 3 dozen distribution or warehouse facilities to close or reduce shifts and lay-off employees. Many would relocate to Lexington or Louisville (KY) or Dayton (OH).

The alternative ---meaning an attempt to retain those facilities --- would require municipal and county governments (and probably State governments as well) to offer some form of tax rebate to offset the increase in minimum wage.

That, of course, uh, you know, results in less taxes collected.

And that results in reduction or termination of municipal or county services, or an increase in taxes to off-set the losses.

When are you people going to realize that nothing is "free" and that everything costs.....everything, as in every thing, as in every single thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
When labor costs rise so will the cost of everything in order to recoup that expense.
That is generally true, but there are exceptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
Fast food margins are razor thin, and with most fast food restaurants being franchised, it's not the parent company that will take the hit directly, it will be the franchisee that will be forced to do away with labor in order to even keep the doors open.
Well, not so much, actually.

You need to recognize the difference between corporate box restaurants, corporate fast-food and local eateries.

Corporate box restaurants (which I refuse to support) are well capitalized, of course, through the sales of stocks and bonds. They are better equipped to deal with system shocks such as government interference in the Laws of Economics via minimum wages.

Corporate fast-food is also well capitalized through the sale of stocks, and even though you pointed out that the franchisees take a hit, they do have some alternatives, such as automating part of their operations, and the franchisees get low-interest loans through the parent corporation, as well as having other advantages.

The local eateries, your chili parlors, greasy spoons, diners, family owned restaurants and such are not well capitalized and are the ones that will suffer most.

For example, there are 8 local restaurants here that were forced to close due to the costs of Obamacare. A raise in the minimum wage might force a few more to close, including one of the restaurants I saved from Obamacare.

Analytically...

Mircea
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Ohio
20,052 posts, read 14,306,500 times
Reputation: 16212
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
But I challenge you to ask every graduate of a four-year institution if he/she is, or is not, gainfully employed at a job directly relevant to his/her field of study, at a rate of pay becoming that education...
I challenge you to prove that they should have been at university in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kineticity View Post
But it starts with the basics, and he should be able to have those on the strength of what he's paid for his own work right now, NOT by virtue of my tax dollars having to supply him with food stamps and subsidized housing so that the corporation that employs him can make billions of dollars by paying its workers next to nothing.
That's Philosophy, not Economics. Learn and understand the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kineticity View Post
Yeah, I'm old-school. Deal with it.
The minimum wage in Romania is $1.40/hour, yet people can buy homes or apartments.....so deal with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kineticity View Post
A full-time job should allow a person to live a basic life at its lowest wage.
That's Philosophy, not Economics. Philosophy is pedantic musings, while Economics is Law. Learn and understand the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kineticity View Post
If that isn't possible, then the lowest wage is set too low for the market in which it's being paid.
The Laws of Economics primarily via the Law of Supply & Demand determines the wages/salaries for each specific skill-set in each of the 1,539 separately functioning economies in the united States.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kineticity View Post
I sometimes think the problem with people in this country lately is that too many of them are so insecure they can't feel good about their lives unless they know someone else is miserable.
No one is responsible for the happiness of others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Well, anyone capable of doing the math knows that good wages are the bedrock of a rising economy,....
Okay, then prove it.

We'll wait. We have time. We have until the end of this Century or until you die, which ever comes first.

A rising economy is independent of employment, and also independent of wages.

You can have a rising economy and lose jobs in the exact same way that you can have arising economy and have wages decline or stagnate. You can even have a rising economy with job losses and stagnating/declining wages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Smaller profits mean a wider distribution of money period.
No, it doesn't. Good luck trying to prove that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Most of America is not making good wages,....
"good wages" is Subjective, rather than Objective, and therefore "good wages" can never be qualified or quantified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
.... BUT MOST OF AMERICA'S CEO'S are.
Why didn't you just come out and say that you suffer from Penis Envy or Butt/Breast Implant Envy?

That got pills for that, you know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
What sense would it make,if burger flippers make 15/hr,yet our Cna's(nurse aides) and even some nurses make less than 15/hr?
It makes perfect sense if the Laws of Economics dictate that is how it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kineticity View Post
EVERYONE deserves to be able to pay for the basics on a 40-hour week, and that includes you, jerseygal4u. There's no good reason why you should have to work 70 hours a week just to put a roof over your head and food on the table.
Haven't you Liberals ever heard of the concept of "Sharing?"

What is wrong with a family of 3 and a family of 4 sharing a 3-bedroom apartment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kineticity View Post
This means the people at McDonald's, the people at Walmart, the people caring for elderly or kids or doing anything else. All of them need and deserve more than $7 or $8 per hour.
Did you know that in some places in the US, if you are single, and have an annual income of $53,490 you will qualify for HUD Section 8 Housing subsidized at tax-payer expense?

How much is $53,490?

$53,490 / 2000 hours = $26.75/hour

Did you know that in some places in the US if you are single, and have an annual income of $9,101 you will be denied HUD Section 8 Housing benefits?

How much is $9,101?

$9,101 / 2000 hours = $4.55 hour.........which is $2.70/hour less than the "federal" minimum wage and $22.20 less than the person earning $26.75/hour.

Uh-oh....oooops......what are you going to do now?

I just totally annihilated your obtuse philosophies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
Back in the 60's,...
Nobody cares what happened in the '60s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kineticity View Post
I honestly don't think a degreed professional should only be making $15 per hour in many markets, either.
An attorney working collections part-time in the Cincinnati MSA gets paid $15/hour......because that is what the Laws of Economics dictate for that skill-set in this particular one of the 1,539 separately functioning economies in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinytrump View Post
-- all this means is the 1% maybe have to give up one lobster a week to pay for higher wages.
Wrong....it means you will either lose services provided by your municipality, county or State, or you will have to pay higher taxes.

Economically...


Mircea
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Verde Valley AZ
8,633 posts, read 9,724,917 times
Reputation: 11024
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbradleyc View Post
I work in retail for a grocery store. I like it. It isn't always fun, but it often is. It is a job and I'm good at it. I do have specialized knowledge pertinent to my job, knowledge I worked hard to gain and that not very many people have.

I tried other things that were potentially more lucrative, but I hated them. I came back and I've been with my company 11 years now. I made myself a good employee. Now I'm in management. I have a decent living, but I'll never own a house. That's okay. I knew it would be this way. I have never been ambitious. I am content.

I do not feel any sympathy for people who think they should get paid money they haven't earned.

I cook most of my food and rarely buy food from restaurants. If they raise the prices I'll buy even less.

My company is not unionized. If it was I would not work there. The very idea of unionization is repulsive. My store's leadership is cool and we talk all the time. I can go to them if I need to for anything. I don't need that screwed up by some money grubbing union. I stand up for myself.
I could have written most of your post myself. I also work in retail and I am good at what I do. I've been working with the public for over 50 years so I think I've pretty much 'got it down'. lol

I don't want management...BTDT...only want to work part time and I am content as well. I'll never own another home either and, like you, I'm okay with that.

I don't find unions to be "repulsive" but they aren't all that great anymore. When unions were first formed there was absolutely a need for them. They did a LOT to improve the workers lot back in the day. But like most things that start out good they can become a not so good thing.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Verde Valley AZ
8,633 posts, read 9,724,917 times
Reputation: 11024
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
Doesn't need? How do you know what a worker needs? How many jobs have you had in which "most workers get raises?" Show me proof. From my experience, working at many jobs in different capacities and not being in the rarefied world of teaching I can say that few people get steady raises and regular intervals.

Compared to office workers, which I was for decades and with a college degree, teachers earn a very good salary. I don't know when you began teaching but I suspect it was at a time when $26,500 was better than most office workers with or without a degree. Same old same old. Teachers constantly whining everyone did better than they. The reality is few people ever get the opportunity to pay into a pension. Many don't get a savings plan. Raises are certainly not the norm for many office employees with or without degrees. They are usually sporadic and not very large unless the employee is in a union. Unions are usually what buys teachers their good benefits, not their degrees.

The point is, no one has the right to say who needs what kind of salary. That is the height of ridiculousness. What about the laid off teacher, of whom there were 400 in a Portland suburb a few years ago as an example, looking for work, trying to support a family desperate for any work getting that fast food job and grateful for it? Are you that arrogant you would say he didn't "deserve" $15.00 an hour?

What happens when your "Professional" has to do a minimum wage job because that is all he or she can get? Does that make his or her worth any less? It is happening all the time. Does that make the job more valuable or the person less valuable? I suggest you rent the documentary "American Winter" and learn something about today's world and the job situation.
So true! I've worked places that SAID they'd give you a raise after XXX months, etc. but never did. A perfect example is my last job before the one I have now. They hired me for $8.50 hour and said that, after 90 days, I'd get a raise to $9.00 hour. Well, that time came and went. Then they asked me to go to another dept. and it was MY total responsibility to run, with no help and I did well at it. After about a year I asked for raise and was denied. Why? Because, "That's all the job is worth". Even though I had improved everything about the place, saved them oodles of money and did the job well. They pulled some other shenanigans as well. That's one job I walked out on with no regrets.
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Old 12-11-2013, 12:05 PM
 
9,261 posts, read 9,325,185 times
Reputation: 29045
I have mixed feelings about this. I will say all of the following:

1. Everyone has the right to organize as workers and form a union. Unions have the right to strike and try to force management to recognize their union.

2. Workers have the right to vote in elections as to whether they want a union or not. These elections are difficult to win in most work places. In fact, more unions have been decertified than certified in these elections in the last couple of decades.

3. If the workers somehow prevail and get their $15 an hour wage, than prices will go up. This is not the end of mankind, but it will have consequences for everyone. (a) the consumer will pay more for fast food (perhaps he should; since its not very healthy); (b) management will have to pay more labor. As such, it will look for ways to higher fewer workers. Ultimately, fewer employees will be hired and those that are hired will have to be have good qualifications. Ordering may become totally automated. The only people working at fast food places may be the people doing the cooking, or watching machines that do all the cooking for them. (c) There will be fewer jobs for entry level workers including high school kids and college kids looking for a means to supplement their income.

4. Other food options than fast food, may seem more attractive. If I had to pay the same amount of money for a sit-down meal as I would for fast food, I would probably go to a real restaurant more often.

5. As prices rise for things like burgers, there will be less demand for beef. There will be a ripple effect depressing prices and wages in the beef industry. Other industries affected negatively would be the trucking industry.

6. Family operated restaurants might be the best business model in such an economy. Family members don't force other family members to pay minimum wage. They just show up for work and everyone, in effect, gets a share of the profits.

7. Paying higher wages plus absorbing the cost of laws like the ACA will put much pressure on small businesses. Overall, I would expect a sizable number to go out of business.

8. Those businesses that pay their employees $15 an hour will be far more demanding of employees. An employee with a high production rate will be kept. Those who are less productive will be laid off. There will be room for only the best.

9. Workers in other industries would demand raises too. The employee currently getting $15 an hour would expect a pay increase and would say he/she is leaving to work in the fast food industry, if they don't get it.

10. This kind of an increase might cause inflation in an economy that, right now, can ill afford that.

There would be many ripple effects from a law like this. I sympathize with the predicament that low wage workers are in. I do support laws like the ACA to see that they have health insurance. I do not feel a $15 an hour wage is anyone's best interest. I could be talked into a smaller increase in the minimum wage.
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