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Excellent post, Pinetreelover. The mom and others haven't grieved for the 13 y.o. who is gone vs. blaming and finding an "out," of their reality. It almost seems like the hospital staff have grieved more, but I can't document that except what the Spokesmen for the Hospital have said.
MSR
I find this to be an astonishing statement. To say that the hospital staff have grieved more than the parents of this dead girl? That is quite a statement, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdflk
Yeah they've grieved alright which is why they say, "We feel for the family"....but also keep talking about how much it's costing them to keep her on LS, and wondering "who's going to pay for it." I'm not even saying that's not a legit issue for them. But it's HOW they've handled this from the start that's been lacking. Either the hospital needs a new PR team, or the admins aren't listening to the PR people they have.
I'm willing to bet the second they realized that girl was brain dead -- the first thoughts were close ranks protect the hospital. And after news stories that the mom tried to get help for the girl's bleeding -- but couldn't -- you know administrators were thinking, "Oh @#%)@^$" They're all about CYA.
You know, having spent a significant amount of time around Med Mal attorneys and cases, I can tell you that everyone involved in this case is busy trying to figure out how to present themselves in the very best possible light. Something may or may not have gone wrong in the surgery. None of us know. But, I guarantee that it was on everyone's mind and that all have consulted with an attorney at this juncture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by riaelise
Why are people thinking this is some type of money grab?? If the child is dead or alive, they can still sue. WTH. I'm almost certain they'd rather have their child back. If anything, they are probably under the influence of opportunistic lawyers who see a big ticket case.
Give me a break. It has nothing to do with money..though I'm wondering if this girl was wealthier would money even be brought up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtn. States Resident
I think the hospital will be fine, as well as the providers, once they are allowed to release medical records. It's hard to respond when the family went to a judge to make sure the hospital couldn't release records.
The link around page 14-16 of the courts legal brief to the court addresses what the hospital has done far beyond what they needed to do.
I don't recall you posting here previously, so welcome, rdflk. I shared my experience working in a PICU on a very similar case. I trust you read previous posts before just writing your opinion prior to posting. I'm confused when you have worked with brain dead patients and their families or hospitals.
Please tell us more about your professional and personal experiences influencing your views. I look forward to your links to support your opinion. Perhaps you have the teens medical records .......and they will be critical in a malpractice suit.
The family can sue but that doesn't mean anything. Nothing says they will get any $ let alone win. It will be a far more difficult task to find experts to testify them.
I look forward to your thoughtful response that adds to this discussion.
MSR
Why are you so anxious that the parents release the medical records to the press? Why should they?
IF a suit is filed; that information will come out soon enough. Certainly the parents of a dead girl aren't required to satisfy your curiousity.
Of course there will be a lawsuit. Will they win? Who knows? None of us do - not even you with your PICU qualifications.
Do you really think no one else can comment without benefit of the medical records or experience in working directly with a brain dead patient?
IF so, this thread should be closed immediately. No one is qualified to have an opinion.
It's unfortunate that the parents have not been ordered to get counseling during all this. I imagine they are in dire need, regardless of the ultimate outcome.
I'm not going to speak to what I think they should do as I have never been in their shoes. I do wish they would look beyond the present to understand that even if their daughter makes it through a move, not only will her quality of life be poor, theirs will suffer as well.
It's unfortunate that the parents have not been ordered to get counseling during all this. I imagine they are in dire need, regardless of the ultimate outcome.
I'm not going to speak to what I think they should do as I have never been in their shoes. I do wish they would look beyond the present to understand that even if their daughter makes it through a move, not only will her quality of life be poor, theirs will suffer as well.
I agree, the family needs to understand brain death and what is happening to their child. They can't seem to reconcile the warm body and involuntary movement with death and that is understandable. I hope they can meet with clergy and trusted family physicians to come to a place of acceptance about their child's death.
Do they actually have a facility (legit one) that will take her at this time?
Maybe now that the family can get what they want they will slow down and reconsider the entire situation.
I don't know if there is a facility or not. Another excellent point.
I like how the decision was worded. I hope the family is prepared for cardiac arrest with no one at Children's able to assist. Maybe this will finally end this chapter.
I can't rep you again yet, ncsualum. The Blogspot post is outstanding for anyone who wants to learn more.
Perhaps in the future families who can't hear the message will be given more graphic AV material to help them understand. Yet, they still may be in denial.
I've mentioned her father several times. No one seems to know. One thought I had days ago but didn't post directly only indirectly, was addressed in the Blogspot link. Family history of bleeding disorders. Wow, that's a biggie if staff wasn't told.
The Family Will Need to Share Their Plan; Personally, IDK!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazkat9696
So I'm confused and maybe someone with more medical expertise can explain it. How are they going to move her without the tubes? As soon as she is removed from the vent her heart will stop correct? The mother really can't expect to walk out of the hospital with all of that equipment.
Sorry about the link, Spazkat. Once I started to look in the media this week, it seems the SFGATE website, probably the newspaper posted above ( Mercury news, San Jose, I think, but can't remember their Web address and MSN to be the most on top. But I don't actively search. The L.A. Times and others may be as good for updates.
I hope someone with medical expertise could explain this further. I'm equally as confused as you.
My understanding, unless there has just been a new update is the mom is now allowed to remove her body and be totally responsible. Oakland Children's Hospital said they would send her current vent tubes, after they disconnect, and some meds. Frankly, I was puzzled what "meds" means. Is that an I.V. for hydration until the current bag is empty or other?
The mom will be 100% responsible for any problems or reactions the teen ' s body has from moving her to a different gurney or anything else. Hopefully, the grandmother, who may be a LVN at K-P, has this planned.
No feeding tube or trach. I understand why Oakland Children's Hospital has requested the plan and usual physician to physician contact.
If there is no facility, the family certainly can take her body home. But I don't know if EMS would have to respond to a 911 call for a brain dead person.
I stated early on I do believe in miracles so anything could be possible. With that in mind, yes, brain dead patients don't have the mid brain and brain stem alive anymore, so the heart does stop beating without a vent. As for what surgeon would do a trach and feeding tube, I have no idea where the yet to be named surgeon would do those procedures.
With no nutrition, who knows what other systems, organs are already in failure.
There is no plan yet (unless something has just been updated), so I honestly don't know how the family will medically manage the brain dead teen even to where the transport vehicle is suppose to be.
Most parents decide to be in a private room and hold their child as the heart stops beating and the child's body starts to cool down etc. I don't want to be more graphic as there are many reading these posts. For those who have lost children and now have a better understanding of brain death, their memories are too fresh.
I've tried to keep a professional but approachable tone to this thread. My main goal was to educate. From the messages I've gotten, the efforts of many to provide factual information has been deeply appreciated by some who haven't been able to post, given their losses.
Our son died of brain cancer.He was declared brain dead after three months in a coma and because of this situation his kidney's failed and they wanted to start dialysis,we said no and after ventilator was turned off his heart stopped within five minutes.You cannot stop the inevitable.
DanBev,
I join others saying I'm sorry about your son. Your experience as a parent is so valuable to this thread. I hope you've started to heal. Please feel free to post more about your son or observations you've had about other parents and their inability to accept brain death.
There is a Grieving Forum on CDF if you don't already know that. You may or may not find it useful.
Sending you my deepest wishes that you find what you need to heal.
My understanding, unless there has just been a new update is the mom is now allowed to remove her body and be totally responsible. Oakland Children's Hospital said they would send her current vent tubes, after they disconnect, and some meds. Frankly, I was puzzled what "meds" means. Is that an I.V. for hydration until the current bag is empty or other?
No feeding tube or trach. I understand why Oakland Children's Hospital has requested the plan and usual physician to physician contact.
With no nutrition, who knows what other systems, organs are already in failure.
MSR
At least from what I have been reading on a nursing board she is on vasopressors to maintain her blood pressure, so I assume that is what meds they may be referring to. This was listed in one of the public court documents. The nurses also mentioned even with a feeding tube the GI tract would not work properly, no hormones. *Graphic*
Spoiler
"Instead she will slough her bowel lining. There will frank blood visible, and almost certainly there would be tissue expelled with each turn. When one is brain-dead, of course there is no rectal sphincter tone"
Is there no feeding tubes in place ? Surely the body is starved for nutrition at this point.
She more than likely is receiving parenteral nutrition;all her nutritional needs are being met by haning iv fluids either through her arms or centrally,through her heart.
I'm not sure which one,but I do know that.
As for her tubes falling out,she more than likely has an endotracheal tube(vent).
Those aren't supposed to be long term;usually,when long term ventilation needs to be implemented,a trach is done.
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