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Again, another great article MSR and thanks for posting and moderating this fascinating thread. I've certainly learned a lot.
Did anyone else think the article implied that hospitals are quick to jump on diagnosis to harvest organs?
""This development will become increasingly significant in the days to come""
Does anyone understand what this means?
It seemed to me that Mr. Schindler mischaracterized the organ donor/procurement system as a wholesale trade in organs. A heart doesn't "go for $80,000", it costs that much to harvest, prep, and transport live organs, not to mention costs of actual transplantation into the new host.
I think it set a bad precedent by allowing the family to have custody of the body. That's just wrong. I can see another family down the road citing this case and saying that they, too, want to take possession of their dead relative's body. I think the court got in the way of doctors doing what they knew was the right thing to do - remove her from the ventilator. When a doctor pronounces a patient dead and several other doctors back it up, it should NOT be the family's decision whether to leave the dead person on a ventilator. With pronouncement of death should come removal of the ventilator until the family has decided to donate organs and the ventilator needs to stay on long enough to procure the organs. The judge is not a doctor and in my opinion shouldn't be making a decision about a patient being on the ventilator or not, especially when several doctors have already said the patient is brain dead.
luzianne,
Another spot on post! I couldn't rep you or I would have. Your posts, clinical clarifications and links have contributed so much to this thread. I appreciate your thoughts and time and effort you've invested adding accurate clinical info as well as links
I agree with you about allowing the family to have custody of the teen's body. You wrote exactly what I've been thinking: what does this set up as an "expectation" or "legal right" of a family about them removing a brain dead patient's body from the ICU and hospital.
This honestly frightens me as a potential case to be cited later for other brain dead patients and their families for multiple reasons. Besides the medical, legal issues; the Ethics and Morality, if you will, are factors I don't even know how to start to address.
This may be too blunt for some, so you may not want to read further. No disrespect intended, but I can see how some might misunderstand my next words.
If families are allowed to remove brain dead patients from ICUs, how will they provide care or pay for a facility unless they are Billionaires? That's assuming a body can be moved without damaging more organs and tissues. We only have the attorney telling us about the teen, no one with a medical, nursing etc. background has come forward to even confirm anything. That is one reason I posted the article by Terri Schiavo' s brother. He documented their organization did NOT contact the teen's family. I wonder what will happen when their organization can't help all that may want to do the same. Plus, I don't think ~$60,000 will be raised for every family.
More disturbing is for families who don't understand brain death, I can see how some could think they could remove their loved one from the hospital and attempt to sell any viable organ for cash.
That is not how Organ Donation works and I know UNOS and procurement teams will have NOTHING to do with any patient's organs outside of a hospital; however, that doesn't mean a black market wouldn't develop.
It is a lot of work in an ICU to keep potentially viable organs well enough perfused and at the right pH, electrolyte level etc.until organ recovery teams can arrive. There is an order of what organs can be removed first to last. And all of this has been established by Ethics Committees, experienced transplant teams, AAN (Neurology to determine brain death) and hospital legal teams. I cringe to think how some without training could view this as a money - making opportunity.
Finally, as I've written before, there are young half siblings being subjected to this craziness. Are they in their mother's custody or elsewhere? I'm having a harder time each day wondering why they are not in the Custody of CPS. Do you think this mom is providing the mothering and care for each of these other children that they need? If not, has she placed them with adults who can meet their needs?
For those who may think the mother has some mental health issues, what do you expect for "mental health," for these young siblings as they develop into adults?
I guess one judge really can change or destroy so much. I am not an attorney so I don't know the process. I wish he could be removed from office by a recall election or something. He may be a wonderful judge who was clueless about brain death. However, he is accountable in my mind for so many things. If one of the half siblings is someday in court charged with moving a brain dead patient somewhere, will the defense say,
"Your Honor, When my client was a small child the Court ruled his/her half sister's brain dead body could be removed from CHO to another facility. My client is innocent by previous Court rulings and what s/he saw "as normal" as a small child."
I would like proof by experts, not the Uncle, how the siblings are doing and if they are receiving counseling for the current situation. Otherwise, I'm very worried not just for adults in medicine, nursing, law and Ethic Boards, but also for the long term effects to the other children.
MSR
Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 01-18-2014 at 11:58 AM..
“She’s in very bad shape,” he said. “What I can tell you is that those examinations show that her medical condition, separate from the brain issue, is not good.”
If this wasn't so sick, it would be laughable. Of course the body is in bad shape, she's DEAD.
Thanks for the great links MSR.
You are welcome, blueherons. I must say I had identical thoughts to what you wrote.
Please keep posting. Your perspective is as important as any other person posting here.
It seemed to me that Mr. Schindler mischaracterized the organ donor/procurement system as a wholesale trade in organs. A heart doesn't "go for $80,000", it costs that much to harvest, prep, and transport live organs, not to mention costs of actual transplantation into the new host.
Emeraldmaiden,
Both you and blueherons picked up that huge inaccurate statement by the late Terri Schiavo ' s brother. That's why threads like this one are so critical to educate about brain death and Organ Procurement.
I almost decided not to include that link, but decided it was important to do so for 3 reasons:
1. He documents their organization didn't contact this family.
2. He states the organization cannot predict when death will occur.
3. His confusing or ignorant statements about brain death and especially organ donation.
I'd rather have a thread where others can ask and answer questions and feel safe compared to assume all printed or broadcast words are accurate.
Thanks for your post and please add more, if you wish.
It seemed to me that Mr. Schindler mischaracterized the organ donor/procurement system as a wholesale trade in organs. A heart doesn't "go for $80,000", it costs that much to harvest, prep, and transport live organs, not to mention costs of actual transplantation into the new host.
True, but putting it that way doesn't sound nearly as dramatic and is less likely to garner outrage and bring in donations.
Both you and blueherons picked up that huge inaccurate statement by the late Terri Schiavo ' s brother. That's why threads like this one are so critical to educate about brain death and Organ Procurement.
I almost decided not to include that link, but decided it was important to do so for 3 reasons:
1. He documents their organization didn't contact this family.
2. He states the organization cannot predict when death will occur.
3. His confusing or ignorant statements about brain death and especially organ donation.
I'd rather have a thread where others can ask and answer questions and feel safe compared to assume all printed or broadcast words are accurate.
Thanks for your post and please add more, if you wish.
MSR
I can't believe how uninformed he is. I can't believe he doesn't understand the difference between his sister and Jahi McMath and that he is talking as if they are the same. They definitely are not. And I can't believe he's in essence encouraging the family to keep up this charade. I did think it might be wrong to basically starve Terry Schiavo because she could breathe on her own and her heart beat on its own and she did have brain activity. That's not to say she would have had a meaningful existence so I still don't know what I think about that case. But in Jahi's case there is no question; she is brain dead. How her brother can say that this case is the same is beyond me.
If the family did this bc they truly believe she will "wake up," it is another mark against ridiculous medical tv shows that show all sorts of spectacular bullsh**.
I don't think medical shows are responsible for the family's beliefs.
Most of this is relative of what we already know. Inaccurate information is here as the word "Coma" is used.
I'm posting this as the name of the adult neurologist and the foundation for whom he works are introduced here. I've never seen them previously, others may have.
The neurologist went to CA to help with the transport.
I wonder why the foundation and this MD never contacted CHO to arrange transfer?
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I Agree 100 %!
