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1. There is no evidence presented thus far of any malpractice. Jahi's family can say whatever they wish about Jahi's care; HIPAA prevents the hospital and doctors from saying anything without the consent of her family. Bleeding is a potential complication of any surgery, and the procedure she had was complex and anything but routine. Without hearing the physicians' side there is no way to determine whether her medical care was substandard or not. We absolutely do not know whether anyone was careless or not.
2. The information that the family contributed to the bleeding came from the family itself. They fed her when she was not supposed to be fed. Her grandmother admitted to repeatedly trying to suction her throat. The very anatomy that led to the problems for which the surgery would make it difficult to manage Jahi's airway while she was bleeding. From what information is available to the public, the proximate cause of the bleeding was indeed due to things the family did.
All a family has to do to refuse organ donation is say no. Your allegation that organ transplantation is done only out of greed is a real kick in the teeth to doctors who make it possible - and to families who make organs available. Let's hope no one you love ever becomes a transplant candidate. I would assume that you would refuse to have it done. The people who discuss organ donation with grieving families are taught how to do it with compassion. They do not just pounce on them immediately after brain death is confirmed.
There was no effort to "rush" Jahi to the morgue. There are steps that must be taken to define brain death. Those were done appropriately and confirmed by an outside expert.
If you have a problem with the $250,000 cap on a "wrongful death" claim you would need to bring that up with the California state legislature. That is a different issue from malpractice. Damages from malpractice are not capped. If you wish to see that wrongful death cap raised I assume you would agree that it should apply to all wrongful deaths, including one that you might cause in a traffic accident.
After brain death occurs there can still be muscle movement because reflexes that happen through the spinal cord still exist. Such movements are not evidence that her brain works. In addition, the family has refused examinations by outside experts. The fact remains that the only reason her heart still beats is due to artificial ventilation. Stop that, and her heart will stop. In essence what we have here is a macabre biology experiment to see how long a human body with no functioning brain can be maintained artificially.
1. There is no evidence presented thus far of any malpractice. Jahi's family can say whatever they wish about Jahi's care; HIPAA prevents the hospital and doctors from saying anything without the consent of her family. Bleeding is a potential complication of any surgery, and the procedure she had was complex and anything but routine. Without hearing the physicians' side there is no way to determine whether her medical care was substandard or not. We absolutely do not know whether anyone was careless or not.
2. The information that the family contributed to the bleeding came from the family itself. They fed her when she was not supposed to be fed. Her grandmother admitted to repeatedly trying to suction her throat. The very anatomy that led to the problems for which the surgery would make it difficult to manage Jahi's airway while she was bleeding. From what information is available to the public, the proximate cause of the bleeding was indeed due to things the family did.
All a family has to do to refuse organ donation is say no. Your allegation that organ transplantation is done only out of greed is a real kick in the teeth to doctors who make it possible - and to families who make organs available. Let's hope no one you love ever becomes a transplant candidate. I would assume that you would refuse to have it done. The people who discuss organ donation with grieving families are taught how to do it with compassion. They do not just pounce on them immediately after brain death is confirmed.
There was no effort to "rush" Jahi to the morgue. There are steps that must be taken to define brain death. Those were done appropriately and confirmed by an outside expert.
If you have a problem with the $250,000 cap on a "wrongful death" claim you would need to bring that up with the California state legislature. That is a different issue from malpractice. Damages from malpractice are not capped. If you wish to see that wrongful death cap raised I assume you would agree that it should apply to all wrongful deaths, including one that you might cause in a traffic accident.
After brain death occurs there can still be muscle movement because reflexes that happen through the spinal cord still exist. Such movements are not evidence that her brain works. In addition, the family has refused examinations by outside experts. The fact remains that the only reason her heart still beats is due to artificial ventilation. Stop that, and her heart will stop. In essence what we have here is a macabre biology experiment to see how long a human body with no functioning brain can be maintained artificially.
Excellent points, all around. The fact that the hospital is legally prohibited from telling its side of the story is extremely important. No Judge would allow a Jury to deliberate on a case after only hearing the plaintiff's side of the story, especially if the defense was not allowed to cross examine the plaintiff's witnesses. Likewise, John Q. Public must reserve judgement until all sides of the story have been told.
The surgery did indeed involve multiple high risk procedures, as evidenced by the fact that the surgeon planned to admit the patient to the ICU before the surgery even began. I have no doubt that the family was duly informed, verbally and in writing, that the patient and might die from a hemorrhage in her throat as a direct result of the surgery. After considering this risk, and weighing this risk (along with multiple other risks) against the benefits of the surgery, the family (not the physician) decided to proceed with the surgery, and signed the paperwork that allowed the surgeon to perform the complex procedures.
More likely they want to keep her alive because CA has a law that her death as a child could only result in a maximum of $250,000 payout, if they could prove malpractice or error on the dr or hospital's part.
If she is alive then they hit the BIG BUCKS--the total cost for all her care, estimated for her life. So they can say she will live to 70 years old and get the money for her care...but she really won't live that long and they 'extra' money is theirs to keep as the law suit is settled.
PLUS they can sue for her and their pain and suffering and their loss of companionship/relationship. Maybe for their move to a place --state-- where she could get care, maybe for a specialized hugh home she can live in, with them of course. They may add their time in caring for her, and it can go on and on, depending on the jury...and in CA juries will give the money to an individual at the expense of a rich DR or hospital.
So her being dead, gets them $250k total, her being alive gives them a blank check!
THAT is why I think they want her to be alive!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToucheGA
Very good point. However, if the family or their attorneys were really worried about criminal prosecution, the simplest approach would be to simply leave things as they are. At this moment, the child is legally dead. If she stays dead, then the family is essentially immune from prosecution.
I think this is the simpler, and thus more plausible reason for the lawsuit, under the Occam's razor / the KISS principle. Furthermore, her mother, and other family members want to believe that she is still alive. I think this desire is purely emotional, and mutually exclusive of and legal motivation. They make be, at least in part, seeking to have the death certificate revoked as a means of validating this delusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brookside
There are some brutal folks on this forum.
If you have read the facts of the case from the beginning (please google them), you would know:
1. This child was the victim of egregious medical malpractice.
2. Once the doctors and hospital realized the magnitude of errors that caused her to fall into a coma - not just botched surgery by the doctor, but negligent after care, where she was left to bleed uncontrollably for hours (quicker action might have saved her), they rushed to have her declared "brain dead" and began *bullying* the family -- repeatedly -- to sign paperwork that would allow them to harvest her organs for donation. They also tried to limit her family's physical access to her body.
Think about it: Your child undergoes surgery for a not uncomplicated but fairly straightforward surgery. You trust the name and reputation of the UC California system; you trust that doctors and medical personnel are going to do their jobs and *take care of your child*.
Your child starts showing signs of distress and no one takes seriously your repeated requests to check into the situation, to help you. Finally they respond, but it is too late --- your child falls into a coma, and before you can really process what has happened, you have a swarm of very official, "smart" , "knowledgeable" people who are not only *unsympathetic* to your situation, but treat you as if you are stupid and inhuman for asking questions about what went wrong; for wanting more information about all options before making a decision to "pull the plug on your child;" for not wanting to rush your kid down to the morgue; for not wanting to have her sliced open so that all of her organs can be removed *for someone else*.
When I first heard about this case, I thought it was a medical system that got a little too eager to pounce on the organs that would be available for the hospital's lucrative transplant facility. There was a precedent of the hospital acting in a similar fashion with another Oakland-area family - Wade & Jen Westhoff, who were also bullied repeatedly by UCSF Benihoff doctors and staff after their daughter Morgan fell into a coma after surgery - and who also filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the hospital and staff. (http://http://www.mercurynews.com/20...d-jahi-mcmath/
However, when I heard that the monetary limitation for a medical malpractice was $250,000 in California, it became much more clear that the hospital was urgently trying to have Jahi McMath declared "dead" in order to limit their liability exposure for their overt malpractice.
I realize that the legal system is messed up; people file frivolous lawsuits all the time. I also know that doctors are human and make mistakes. Life is fragile and difficult.
But doctors and hospitals have a *duty* to exercise care and good judgement when treating patients. It is very clear in the McMath case that they not only *did not* exercise care and good judgement in her treatment, they actively tried to cover their mistakes and negligence, and then used their money and power to bully the family (people of color, and of limited means) into accepting the "brain dead" diagnosis in order to lessen the damages for which they knew they were liable.
I ask you again to consider how you would feel if a loved one's death was caused directly by the actions of a careless doctor and medical staff (especially if that love one were young, not suffering from a terminal disease, and who otherwise would have years of normal life in front of them).
You would feel angry. You would want the people who caused your loved one's death to own up to the mistake and be held accountable.
And would $250,000 be enough - to compensate you for the loss of your child's life, and to hold the hospital accountable for their fatal mistakes and their subsequent mistreatment of you and mishandling of the situation?
I kinda doubt it.
Let's face it -- In a world where hospitals and doctors are motivated by profit rather than by a desire to help and heal, the only thing patients have to hold them accountable, to force them to behave with care and with transparency - is the legal system.
I don't believe this family is motivated by greed (and I do not believe all the BS floating around that they somehow were implicit in Jahi's death. That stinks of hospital lawyers and PR trying to muddy the waters and deflect the attention away from their clients). FWIW, my opinion is they are motivated by a desire for justice for the undeniable wrongs they have suffered.
And as for whether Jahi is truly, fully *dead* - I don't think so. I've seen the tapes; they are pretty convincing of some kind brain activity. And we need to separate de facto "life" from issues of "quality of life." Would I want that kind of future for a loved one? Of course not. But it is *not* up to me - or anyone else - to tell another family what they should do in this situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
1. There is no evidence presented thus far of any malpractice. Jahi's family can say whatever they wish about Jahi's care; HIPAA prevents the hospital and doctors from saying anything without the consent of her family. Bleeding is a potential complication of any surgery, and the procedure she had was complex and anything but routine. Without hearing the physicians' side there is no way to determine whether her medical care was substandard or not. We absolutely do not know whether anyone was careless or not.
2. The information that the family contributed to the bleeding came from the family itself. They fed her when she was not supposed to be fed. Her grandmother admitted to repeatedly trying to suction her throat. The very anatomy that led to the problems for which the surgery would make it difficult to manage Jahi's airway while she was bleeding. From what information is available to the public, the proximate cause of the bleeding was indeed due to things the family did.
All a family has to do to refuse organ donation is say no. Your allegation that organ transplantation is done only out of greed is a real kick in the teeth to doctors who make it possible - and to families who make organs available. Let's hope no one you love ever becomes a transplant candidate. I would assume that you would refuse to have it done. The people who discuss organ donation with grieving families are taught how to do it with compassion. They do not just pounce on them immediately after brain death is confirmed.
There was no effort to "rush" Jahi to the morgue. There are steps that must be taken to define brain death. Those were done appropriately and confirmed by an outside expert.
If you have a problem with the $250,000 cap on a "wrongful death" claim you would need to bring that up with the California state legislature. That is a different issue from malpractice. Damages from malpractice are not capped. If you wish to see that wrongful death cap raised I assume you would agree that it should apply to all wrongful deaths, including one that you might cause in a traffic accident.
After brain death occurs there can still be muscle movement because reflexes that happen through the spinal cord still exist. Such movements are not evidence that her brain works. In addition, the family has refused examinations by outside experts. The fact remains that the only reason her heart still beats is due to artificial ventilation. Stop that, and her heart will stop. In essence what we have here is a macabre biology experiment to see how long a human body with no functioning brain can be maintained artificially.
There seem to be some misconceptions here about California law. I am not sure this is central to the topic, but because so many seem confused I am going to take the time clarify California law.
California has a $250,000 cap on recovering pain and suffering damages in medical malpractice lawsuits. This does not mean that all damages in such cases are capped at $250,000. For example, damages could be claimed for future medical expenses, personal care expenses, or future lost wages the victim might earn.
There is no cap in California of $250,000 on wrongful death cases that result from either medical malpractice cases or other wrongful death cases. Although, pain and suffering may be the main item of damage in a wrongful death case involving a relatively young child or teenager.
There is much about the behavior of this family that is disturbing to me. However, I believe the following:
1. An opinion should not be offered on the merits (or lack thereof) of a malpractice suit in this case without hearing much more in the way of facts.
2. Stating that "egregious malpractice" occurred in this case is virtually defamatory without knowing more details.
3. An allegation that this was done to harvest this person's organs for transplantation is outrageous without definitive proof.
4. Its borderline outrageous to assert the family would not accept the fact of this girl's death because of the value it would give or take away from a lawsuit without proof.
Frankly, I wish a lot of people could refrain from jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions.
My grandson is 22 yrs old and when he was 3 months old he ended up with Bacterial Meningitis. My son-in-law was overseas and attached to a Nuclear Sub. My daughter kept taking Chris to Langley in Virginia and they kept sending her back home saying it was just a flu.
Finally Chris' temp went up even more so she gets in her car heads back to Langley and they did some tests and he had Bacterial Meningitis. She yelled at them and told them she was NOT leaving. They ended up putting Chris in a naval hospital ( they lived at Ft. Monroe in VA- on base) and later told my daughter to go home. Well, Chris went into cardiac arrest during the night - Military Police brought my daughter back to the hospital and a Naval officer called me here in California telling me I needed to get out there as my grandson was not expected to live. I was put on a plane - finally got to Children's Hospital in Norfolk where they transferred him.
We got my son-in- law back to Virginia. We stood by Chris' bed and clung to hope he would be ok. He was on a ventilator for about 4- 5 days. They decided to take him off and figured that would be it. Well, Chris started breathing on his own. Over time, they discovered Chris lost 75 % of his brain. He only responded to stimulation. They also told the kids he would not live to see his 5th birthday.
Chris is 22 yr old today - has had numerous surgeries - many close calls but he is still here. No he cannot talk, eat or walk but he is still here. My daughter has fought for her son for years - has not given up on him. He now has a lung disease and is on a ventilator full time. They have nursing help but she is the main caregiver. He has been home all the years.
What do you say to my daughter? This is her son and believes when his time is up - it is up. He has fought back. I do not know what her wishes are now as she and I have been estranged until recently. She finally reached out to me. I believe she has kept me away for fear I would tell her to let Chris go but that is not who I am. That is for my daughter to decide. She and her husband are still together. I have always been proud of the human being that my daughter is. This is all she has known is to take care of Chris. They have a 25 yrs old daughter as well who is doing well. What would you say to this mother?
For this mother-grandmother it BREAKS my heart. It has been hard watching my only daughter go through all of this but I could not be more proud of her for wanting to care for Chris. She could be a nurse now because that is how good she has gotten at taking care of him. I want people to understand that not all people are the same - many could not do this. My daughter has and the doctors in Long Beach, CA think the world of my daughter and have great respect for her and her husband. Has not been easy but it is THEIR choice. Chris was taken care of at Children's Hospital in Los Angeles until he turned 18. This is where he went for his check ups etc. We are big supporters of Childrens' Hospital. Thanks for reading.
This isn't even close to the same situation. This child has already proven she can't breathe without a vent. She has failed multiple brain death tests. She has a death certificate.
My grandson is 22 yrs old and when he was 3 months old he ended up with Bacterial Meningitis. My son-in-law was overseas and attached to a Nuclear Sub. My daughter kept taking Chris to Langley in Virginia and they kept sending her back home saying it was just a flu.
Finally Chris' temp went up even more so she gets in her car heads back to Langley and they did some tests and he had Bacterial Meningitis. She yelled at them and told them she was NOT leaving. They ended up putting Chris in a naval hospital ( they lived at Ft. Monroe in VA- on base) and later told my daughter to go home. Well, Chris went into cardiac arrest during the night - Military Police brought my daughter back to the hospital and a Naval officer called me here in California telling me I needed to get out there as my grandson was not expected to live. I was put on a plane - finally got to Children's Hospital in Norfolk where they transferred him.
We got my son-in- law back to Virginia. We stood by Chris' bed and clung to hope he would be ok. He was on a ventilator for about 4- 5 days. They decided to take him off and figured that would be it. Well, Chris started breathing on his own. Over time, they discovered Chris lost 75 % of his brain. He only responded to stimulation. They also told the kids he would not live to see his 5th birthday.
Chris is 22 yr old today - has had numerous surgeries - many close calls but he is still here. No he cannot talk, eat or walk but he is still here. My daughter has fought for her son for years - has not given up on him. He now has a lung disease and is on a ventilator full time. They have nursing help but she is the main caregiver. He has been home all the years.
What do you say to my daughter? This is her son and believes when his time is up - it is up. He has fought back. I do not know what her wishes are now as she and I have been estranged until recently. She finally reached out to me. I believe she has kept me away for fear I would tell her to let Chris go but that is not who I am. That is for my daughter to decide. She and her husband are still together. I have always been proud of the human being that my daughter is. This is all she has known is to take care of Chris. They have a 25 yrs old daughter as well who is doing well. What would you say to this mother?
For this mother-grandmother it BREAKS my heart. It has been hard watching my only daughter go through all of this but I could not be more proud of her for wanting to care for Chris. She could be a nurse now because that is how good she has gotten at taking care of him. I want people to understand that not all people are the same - many could not do this. My daughter has and the doctors in Long Beach, CA think the world of my daughter and have great respect for her and her husband. Has not been easy but it is THEIR choice. Chris was taken care of at Children's Hospital in Los Angeles until he turned 18. This is where he went for his check ups etc. We are big supporters of Childrens' Hospital. Thanks for reading.
The difference is that your Grandson started breathing on his own when they disconnected the ventilator.
My grandson is 22 yrs old and when he was 3 months old he ended up with Bacterial Meningitis. My son-in-law was overseas and attached to a Nuclear Sub. My daughter kept taking Chris to Langley in Virginia and they kept sending her back home saying it was just a flu.
Finally Chris' temp went up even more so she gets in her car heads back to Langley and they did some tests and he had Bacterial Meningitis. She yelled at them and told them she was NOT leaving. They ended up putting Chris in a naval hospital ( they lived at Ft. Monroe in VA- on base) and later told my daughter to go home. Well, Chris went into cardiac arrest during the night - Military Police brought my daughter back to the hospital and a Naval officer called me here in California telling me I needed to get out there as my grandson was not expected to live. I was put on a plane - finally got to Children's Hospital in Norfolk where they transferred him.
We got my son-in- law back to Virginia. We stood by Chris' bed and clung to hope he would be ok. He was on a ventilator for about 4- 5 days. They decided to take him off and figured that would be it. Well, Chris started breathing on his own. Over time, they discovered Chris lost 75 % of his brain. He only responded to stimulation. They also told the kids he would not live to see his 5th birthday.
Chris is 22 yr old today - has had numerous surgeries - many close calls but he is still here. No he cannot talk, eat or walk but he is still here. My daughter has fought for her son for years - has not given up on him. He now has a lung disease and is on a ventilator full time. They have nursing help but she is the main caregiver. He has been home all the years....
Edited for brevity...
You're grandson was never declared brain dead, I presume. There's a major difference between losing a large amount of brain function and brain death.
Even in the rare circumstances where breathing is possible but higher brain functions are nonexistent (e.g., there have been past cases of babies born with severe anencephaly where all they had was a brain stem and rudimentary bodily functions but nothing else), personally, I'd seriously consider if that's a life I'd want my child to live. It's not just about my personal desire to keep my kid alive but about how hat decision would affect everyone around me. Jahi, IIRC, is NOT an only child, and I can only imagine how the stress of all this is affecting her family as a whole. Not everyone has the money, On my way!, and energy to care for a severely disabled child for years, especially when that child's quality of life is highly questionable.
Lots of times families will swear the patient is not brain dead because they "squeeze their hands" to questions. This is the Palmar grasp reflex, unfortunately.
There is one way for families can come to term with the death of a precious child. I have seen this as an ICU nurse. That is to agree for the child to be an organ donor. As many as 5 children or adult lives can be saved and in that way. The life of their child lives on. They might even find the recipients again via social media. I have heard of this.
Last edited by BlackberryMerlot; 04-15-2018 at 06:10 PM..
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