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Old 05-12-2014, 05:17 PM
 
10,346 posts, read 7,645,134 times
Reputation: 4520

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Quote:
Originally Posted by War Beagle View Post
The climate always changes. The questions we need to ask are:

1) Do humans have anything to do with it?

2) Is the changing climate being used as scare tactic by government to raise revenues or to enact legislation or programs that would otherwise fail?
Question #1 has already been answered.

To raise revenues? Why? Why would the government seek to take on high-cost programs when it isn't necessary?
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Old 05-12-2014, 05:21 PM
 
5,496 posts, read 2,351,094 times
Reputation: 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoopLV View Post
I left Florida and I won't be going back, even though it was the best time of my life (thus far). When I moved there, we had one, maybe two tropical storms each year. And we had a hurricane once every two or three years, and it was almost always Category 1 or 2.

Yes, there were big storms in the old days before massive carbon emissions -- The Labor Day Hurricane of 1935, for instance (that was so long ago they didn't even name storms).

But the truth of the matter is this -- now we get several tropical storms each year, and multiple hurricanes each year. And the average strength of these storms is increasing due to the warmer oceans.

Point blank: My hometown is likely to be scoured off the face of the earth and then swallowed by the sea in my lifetime. Let the fools argue against mountains of contrary evidence that mankind has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter. This is a likely event. And I don't want to be anywhere near the Florida coast when it happens.

My opinion: We are not far from the first wave of climate change refugees. (Probably Bangladesh.) When that happens, it will be a civilization game changer. And just wait for the year the East Coast gets whacked with multiple Sandys and Katrinas in a single summer. It'll happen. Statistically, it's certain to happen eventually. It will likely happen sooner than later. And then we'll see a lot of movement around the US, as well.

We are marching headfirst, and mostly oblivious, into what the Chinese call "interesting times."
I am incredulous when I speak to my neighbors or at a school function talking to other parents and they are skeptical of climate change or that our actions in pumping out CO2 emissions are contributing to its cause, when we all live in the same coastal community, see the same unrelenting beach erosion, pay the same hurricane and flood insurance, and all have the same fears and concerns come hurricane season. Coastal flooding is occurring everywhere in Florida and there are concerns with the rising salinity of the water supply. What is the mindset of wanting to do nothing or not caring is my question?

Last edited by TreeBeard; 05-12-2014 at 05:35 PM..
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Old 05-12-2014, 05:31 PM
 
8,261 posts, read 6,098,365 times
Reputation: 10636
The sun is slowly transitioning to burning helium vs hydrogen. As it does this, it gets bigger in diameter and luminocity.. as it does this, more heat reaches the Earth. On the order of something like a 10% luminosity increase per billion years. So, warming is a fact on the long term.. Man-man warming... I'm not sold entirely on it, certainly not while tying it to CO2 emissions.

The fact that there are 'more' hurricanes and tropical storms has less to do with there actually being more and more to do with the fact that we're detecting more of them. Comparing the number of storms in 2010 vs 1960, when satellite coverage of the oceans was much less is like saying that there used to be far fewer bee nests on your house when you only looked at one corner vs now when you look at the whole house. Our current satellites can pretty much tell when a cow farts in Omaha. Satellites from the 60's, 70's and 80's couldn't do that.

The best data to look at here is how many tropical systems affected Florida?

1900-1949 - 108
1950-1974 - 86
1975-1999 - 83
2000-present - 63

Right now, not enough data to say that there will only be another 23 in the next 10 years, which would put us right on par with where we have been. Data from 1900-1949 is lower.. But is that significant? Measuring what is/is not a tropical storm is far more accurate now. So.. those numbers have to be taken with something of a grain of salt.. Additionally.. the more recent numbers may include things that hit lowly populated areas that may not have even been reported in the early part of the 20th century.

Global Warming and climate change are happening and will continue to happen whether humans have (or had, for that matter) any interaction at all.

How much effect humans have on global warming happening is up for debate as well. The global warming fanatics lose face when no matter what happens, they say it's due to global warming(Hot winter? global warming. Cold winter? Global warming. A bear crapped in the woods? Global warming). The global warming skeptics lose face when they say the earth is not warming, because it is, at least over the long haul.

I would suspect things along the lines of deforestation and city sprawl contributing more at this point to warming of the earth than CO2 emissions. You tear down a forest and build an asphalt parking lot, you're changing the albedo of the earth, which causes more heat absorption and retention. On what scale and is that big enough to make a difference? I don't know. I'd figure it's got to have some kind of impact.. Just a matter of how much.

Climate expert is a freaking oxymoron. When they can accurately predict what the weather is going to be tomorrow.. I might listen to them about what it's going to be in 50 freaking years.

Perhaps.. Moreso than CO2 emissions.. We should focus on population growth. When 2 people produce 5 kids.. That's a big population boom. Which means, if you believe warming is caused by CO2, that more cars will be out there, more power plants will be built generating more CO2 emissions than if the 2 people had no or one child. You cut the population, then all these problems pretty much solve themselves.

If you want a good 'expert prediction'.. I'll give you one.. This topic will be closed within a week.

Last edited by Labonte18; 05-12-2014 at 05:41 PM..
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Old 05-12-2014, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Cold Springs, NV
4,576 posts, read 9,137,367 times
Reputation: 4997
Exhibit #1, polar ice packs

Arctic ice pack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

CO2 levels have changed throughout history and can be measure dating back 1000's of years. In the last 100 years we are now double any high in 1000's of years past. This is proof our impact is not cyclical.

Greenhouse gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Population growth in the last 200 years has shot up dramatically.

File:Population curve.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is clear evidence that cannot be disavowed that man is not having an impact.
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Old 05-12-2014, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Washington State
15,511 posts, read 8,147,176 times
Reputation: 13250
I've never heard anyone deny climate change. Climate has been changing since long before recorded history or human civilization. I've heard people not believe human activity is the driver of climate change and that there are people (like Al Gore) and scientists (seeking federal money are receiving grants) overhyping and selling "global warming and climate change" which is an arguable position. Also there are people (such as Rubio) that don't believe anything we do in the USA will have an impact on changing the climate, especially when what we do doesn't change what countries such as China and India do.
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Old 05-12-2014, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Cold Springs, NV
4,576 posts, read 9,137,367 times
Reputation: 4997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
I've never heard anyone deny climate change. Climate has been changing since long before recorded history or human civilization. I've heard people not believe human activity is the driver of climate change and that there are people (like Al Gore) and scientists (seeking federal money are receiving grants) overhyping and selling "global warming and climate change" which is an arguable position. Also there are people (such as Rubio) that don't believe anything we do in the USA will have an impact on changing the climate, especially when what we do doesn't change what countries such as China and India do.
Please argue the fact that CO2 concentrations since the 1800's are 40% higher than at anytime in the last 10,000 plus years as documented? Please prove these scientific results are cyclical?
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Old 05-12-2014, 06:48 PM
 
2,079 posts, read 3,253,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
I live in Florida and own property here. The evidence of sea level rise is evident everywhere and I don't need any scientists whether for or against climate change to tell me the truth of rising sea levels. Florida ranges from a few inches to a few feet above sea level and any increase is going to affect coastal Florida as well as potentially the aquifer with devastating effects. Except for those who don't want to acknowledge the obvious, as far as I know many businesses, coastal communities and insurance companies all know what's coming down the pike and are preparing for its consequences.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/us...ange.html?_r=0

I think that the denial of global warming and climate change has nothing to do with rational thinking, awareness of the fact that virtually all reputable scientists world wide have come to a consensus that this is happening, etc. This "belief" that there is no global warming is just that: belief, not rational thinking that is based on objective evidence. People who deny these irrefutable studies as valid do this out of an emotional need to support, usually, a set of beliefs which have nothing to do with evidence.

These people are like those who don't "believe" in evolution. It has nothing whatsoever to do with evidence. I don't bother arguing with them.
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:41 PM
 
208 posts, read 181,722 times
Reputation: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by 30to66at55 View Post
We have to stop listening to so called scientists.....all they are looking for is more government funding so they can keep their jobs
As in any other human endeavor, science is not immune to the influence of politics. And the motivating factor of money is always present as well.
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Rhode Island
6,328 posts, read 10,531,804 times
Reputation: 6135
Here's for you people who keep saying that Al Gore was wrong.

Read this and try to deny reality: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/sc...-say.html?_r=0
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Rhode Island
6,328 posts, read 10,531,804 times
Reputation: 6135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha Anne View Post
I think that the denial of global warming and climate change has nothing to do with rational thinking, awareness of the fact that virtually all reputable scientists world wide have come to a consensus that this is happening, etc. This "belief" that there is no global warming is just that: belief, not rational thinking that is based on objective evidence. People who deny these irrefutable studies as valid do this out of an emotional need to support, usually, a set of beliefs which have nothing to do with evidence.

These people are like those who don't "believe" in evolution. It has nothing whatsoever to do with evidence. I don't bother arguing with them.
You're right. It's pretty useless.
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