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Old 06-03-2014, 03:12 PM
 
28,411 posts, read 14,189,199 times
Reputation: 19546

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquietpath View Post
I think there is a huge increase in shootings by cops, whether at people or dogs. Seems like cops will shoot to kill at the drop of a hat. There have just been too many cases where a video taken shows the cops overreacting unnecessarily. Personally, I'm getting sick of it. Wasn't there just a case where a cop blindedn a woman with pepper spray inches away from her face because she "annoyed" him? Another case lately where they threw a grenade into a baby's crib? Here in Dallas, there have been lots of shootings by cops that have been proven to be unwarranted.
At the drop of a hat?

Well, in the US, in 2012, there were about 780,000 law enforcement officers (List of countries by number of police officers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

In 2012, there were 48 law enforcement officers murdered in felonious incidents in the line of duty ( FBI — Latest Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted Report Released )

In 2012, there were approximately 313 million people in the US (U.S. Population 2012: Nearly 313 Million People - US News)

In 2012, there were 355 people shot and killed by police (I had to go month by month and add them together - List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2012 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ).

BTW, one of the reasons I chose 2012, is because there were a large drop in the number of law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty. Down by 24 from 2011 when the number killed was 74.

In 2012, if you were a law enforcement officer, you had a 1 in 31,166 chance of being murdered in the line of duty.

In 2012, if you were a civilian, you had a 1 in 881,690 chance of being shot and killed by a law enforcement officer.

So essentially, law enforcement officers were 28 more times likely to be murdered in the line of duty than a person being killed by a law enforcement officer.

Now, let's say a full 50% of times when a person was killed by a law enforcement officer weren't justified. That would mean 177 people were shot and killed that shouldn't.

So, if 780,000 cops were to shoot someone "at the drop of a hat", do you really believe that kill number would only be 177?

Hyperbole much?
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,718 posts, read 1,533,717 times
Reputation: 5664
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Going into that home, would you have a gun, pepper spray or nothing in your hand?
Nothing in my hand, but prepared for anything. Did it more than once as an MP. You are wearing a vest (unless you're an absolute idiot), have a night stick, other non-lethal weapons, and a pistol. As I stated, your JOB is to deescalate, you are in control, and need to be aware of the right tool for the job at hand.

Weapons drawn tends to generate fear and stupid decisions (with both Cops and Perps). Keeping your head keeps you alive, not having a weapon out, and shooting at the first provocation.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:46 PM
 
28,411 posts, read 14,189,199 times
Reputation: 19546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad View Post
Nothing in my hand, but prepared for anything. Did it more than once as an MP. You are wearing a vest (unless you're an absolute idiot), have a night stick, other non-lethal weapons, and a pistol. As I stated, your JOB is to deescalate, you are in control, and need to be aware of the right tool for the job at hand.

Weapons drawn tends to generate fear and stupid decisions (with both Cops and Perps). Keeping your head keeps you alive, not having a weapon out, and shooting at the first provocation.
It would be my guess that a large amount of the police force would quit if they were told they couldn't draw their weapon until after they see a suspect with a weapon. I would never expect a policeman to have to enter situations under such conditions.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,718 posts, read 1,533,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
It would be my guess that a large amount of the police force would quit if they were told they couldn't draw their weapon until after they see a suspect with a weapon. I would never expect a policeman to have to enter situations under such conditions.
That is the expectation on any police force I am aware of.
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:26 PM
 
28,411 posts, read 14,189,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad View Post
That is the expectation on any police force I am aware of.
It's actually a tough thing to track down.

The only actual "rule book" I could find is for the Houston PD, and it is old. ( https://la.utexas.edu/users/jmciver/..._houstonpd.PDF ). You can find the information on Page 5.

Quote:
Rule 8 prohibits police officers from drawing or otherwise displaying their firearms without
probable cause to believe there is a threat to the officers' life or safety.


Drawing or displaying a firearm can limit officers' alternatives in controlling situations, as well as create unnecessary anxiety on the part of citizens and result in unwarranted or accidental discharges. Officers' decisions to draw or display firearms should be based on specific aspects of the tactical situation. Something in the situation should indicate a substantial risk that the situation will escalate to the point where the officers will have to use their firearms to protect life. Officers should be guided by the following:

Do not draw or display your firearm unless you have probable cause to believe that you will
have to discharge it in order to protect life.

In summary, the Department has developed a sound and concise policy and set of rules to guide its officers in exercising their authority to use firearms to protect life. The responsibility to learn and to follow the guidelines provided lies with each and every officer. Also, officers should realize that their judgments and actions will be assessed against the standard of this policy and these rules.



As you can see, there is no rule against having your weapon drawn in such a situation as being discussed here.


In 2000, the official NYC stance was that the officer could draw his weapon whenever he felt it was necessary to protect himself and/or citizens. - Police Will Review Policy On When to Draw Guns - NYTimes.com

When you go to this police forum, they tend to draw them a lot. If it were against policy, I don't think that would be occurring. - How often do you draw your gun? [Archive] - Real Police: Law Enforcement,Police Officer,Criminal Justice,Background Checks website...

"Police officers say there is no clear-cut rule on drawing their guns." - Police Weapon Use Debated - Sun Sentinel

-----------

If there are any cops reading this, please weigh in on your department's policy and if you would have your weapon drawn in this situation.
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Northern California
11 posts, read 5,843 times
Reputation: 32
It seems to me that both sides are under a lot of pressure in this kind of situation. Many cops do tend to be overzealous with their power because they are afraid for their life and because, in many of these situations, there are no consequences for them; many times there isn't even an investigation. I know that not all cops are glorified bullies, some of them are genuinely great people, but, in my experience, they abuse their authority.



The Berwyn Heights, Maryland mayor's story is a perfect example of an excessive use of force with absolutely no consequences. In fact, the cops involved in this story were COMMENDED for their actions. That is the biggest problem. If they knew they had to be responsible for their actions, they would actually think twice before firing their guns and might even choose to arm themselves with non-lethal weapons from the start. No one can deny that when power is given in a system that does not encourage honor or responsibility, the power will be abused and innocent lives will be destroyed or lost.

Berwyn Heights, Maryland mayor's residence drug raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,718 posts, read 1,533,717 times
Reputation: 5664
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
It's actually a tough thing to track down.

Pedro, I concur, because each department will have their own rules and regulations on the matter, so it is a department by department thing. I suspect high violent crime districts pull weapons more often than low violent crime districts. I am all for police defending themselves, if required, but like I have said in previous posts, WRT dogs, it seems killing is becoming the 1st resort, not the last.

If there are any cops reading this, please weigh in on your department's policy and if you would have your weapon drawn in this situation.
I would also be very interested - I am not a cop, but have been an MP, and that is not the same thing, and not the same population group for policing (self selected population with a centralized CoC that everyone answers to).

In the town I grew up in (this is a lot of years ago) a drawn weapon would result in an investigation of the event and a determination if it was required. Not sure if anything more was done beyond the investigation.

My son-in-law's department (per him - I have not read the policy in writting) considers any dog on the scene as a risk to the officer, so killing dogs is not questioned when responding to a call.
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:33 PM
Status: "It takes a lot of balls to golf like me" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Charleston, SC
4,000 posts, read 3,211,483 times
Reputation: 3421
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Hope you aren't aiming this at me because I said nothing about aimless targeting of anything.
It was mean toward the opening statements by the OP and this debate...Puppycide, really??
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,718 posts, read 1,533,717 times
Reputation: 5664
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiseManOnceSaid View Post
It was mean toward the opening statements by the OP and this debate...Puppycide, really??
Yup! Puppycide. Not my term actually, but I like it, and stand behind it.

I think there is a recent and increasing problem with police killing pets, rather than using other means to control them. I base that on a spate of recent news reports, and if you read the OP, I was quite specific in asking if it was an actual problem with increasing frequency, or simply getting reported more often (obviously, there has not been a scientific analysis yet, with a study I can point too!).

I personally think it is happening more often in recent years because it generally isn't reveiwed by supervisors, and because a dog isn't a person (and I am not equating the two). Killing pets is bad policing, and should be quite rare. I don't ever want to wonder if I should call the cops because they are likely to kill my dog during their response, and quite frankly, that thought would run through my mind based on recent reports in the press, my cousin's experience, and my son-in-laws (cop) statements and actions.

I just googled "cop shoots dog" and got 2,200,000 hits in .29 seconds. I realize there are a lot of repeated stories, but this is obviously becoming a problem.

Last edited by Tuck's Dad; 06-03-2014 at 07:35 PM.. Reason: Add Google search comment
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Northern California
11 posts, read 5,843 times
Reputation: 32
Cop Shoots Dog: Untrained Officers Commit 'Puppycide' (PHOTOS)

This is the best article I could find in response to the OP.

The problem is that the stats for police shootings are not documented anywhere, even shootings involving people. That is rather disturbing to me. I believe we have the right to know those kinds of things and there are many stats, spanning many subjects, which are far less important and recorded with impressive accuracy.

I'm not sure if Puppycide is becoming more common or not. It's quite likely that these types of atrocities have been happening in high numbers for a very long time but now we finally have the means to record the incidents and spread the word.

Quote:
Groups like the Humane Society and the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals offer free training to police departments, but both organizations said few departments take them up on the offer.... Contrast that to the U.S. Postal Service, another government organization whose employees regularly come into contact with pets. A Postal Service spokesman said in a 2009 interview that serious dog attacks on mail carriers are extremely rare. That's likely because postal workers are annually shown a two-hour video and given further training on "how to distract dogs with toys, subdue them with voice commands, or, at worst, incapacitate them with Mace."
Quote:
In drug raids, killing any dog in the house has become almost perfunctory. In a 2008 drug raid in Columbia, Mo., you can see police kill two dogs, including one as it retreats. Despite police assurance that the dogs were menacing, the video depicts the officers discussing who will kill the dogs before they even arrive at the house
Quote:
During a 2008 raid in Lima, Ohio, one officer heard his fellow officer shooting dogs in the home and mistook the shots for hostile gunfire. Thinking he was under attack, he opened fire at shadows coming from an upstairs bedroom. In that room, 24-year-old Tarika Wilson was on her knees, as she had been instructed, with one hand in the air and her other arm holding her year-old son. Wilson was killed, and the boy lost a hand.
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