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Old 06-10-2014, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Area 51.5
13,904 posts, read 11,020,676 times
Reputation: 9036

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys View Post
Turns out these shooters were GOP supporters of Bundy.

Bundy's son: Las Vegas shooters kicked off ranch
Turns out you're wrong.

No surprise there.
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
11,790 posts, read 12,665,439 times
Reputation: 10007
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
In the time the Constitution was written, you couldn't stand up against a cannon or mortar with with a musket either.
Interesting. So you believe the gap between a militia of men with muskets that has a very good chance of out numbering the standing army of a fledgling country is about the same as the gap between some guy in his safe room full of Ar15s and the United states military with tomahawks and Apaches and Abrams and nuclear subs and thousands of troops etc etc etc?
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Northern California
11 posts, read 5,836 times
Reputation: 32
Default Let's focus on phychological reform, not political reform

Maybe if the civilian in Walmart had not been the only one who was armed, he would still be alive. In a situation where someone has a gun, they are in complete control unless someone can even the playing field. Maybe if more people on the street, where the initial shooting happened, were armed, they could have ended the situation right then and there, before they even went into the WalMart.

Is it possible that shootings like this are not actually becoming more common but the internet/media is simply drawing more attention to them? From the stats I've seen, gun deaths have been dropping steadily since the '80s.

Additionally, the notion that we have some of the highest gun mortality rates of the "delevoped countries" is untrue. While we do have the highest rate of gun ownership, about 88 out of 100 people, in 2012 only 2-5 out of 100,000 people were killed by firearms. Contrarily, Honduras, for example, has one of the lowest gun ownership rates, about 6 out of 100 people, while their gun mortality rate is the highest in the world, at about 68 per 100,000 people. True, they are not as "developed" as we are but it is a staggering statistic nonetheless.

The way I see it, no one, not even the experts, can agree on whether or not conceal-carry laws make crime go up or down. What I do know is that if I was in a situation where someone was threatening me, or anyone else, with any kind of weapon, it is my right to be able to protect myself. True, it does not guarantee absolute survival, especially in an ambush case like this, but knowing I can protect myself to the best of my ability makes me feel much more at peace, especially with all the crazies out there.

The real problem here, as a few others have stated, is the psychology of the majority of the people here in the US. Imagine what a different reaction the people would have if, instead of focusing on the guns in the issue, the media focused on the people in the issue and urged psychological reform as opposed to political reform.
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Old 06-10-2014, 11:20 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,268 posts, read 1,378,474 times
Reputation: 3737
Well, I'm glad you concede that Honduras is not as developed (not sure why the quotation marks are necessary) as the US. You say focus on 'psychological reform' - I'm not sure what you mean, but if you mean develop more resources towards mental health, in a nation where tax dollars going to help others is often frowned upon - no less than by many who continue to support liberal gun laws (the MY rights crowd), it seems unlikely.
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:31 AM
 
Location: Northern California
11 posts, read 5,836 times
Reputation: 32
I understand your cynicism. But I am a little unclear on the point you are trying to make.

Liberals are almost unanimously against individuals owning guns and in favor of government programs designed to help individuals. i.e. the ACA, prenatal care for low income mothers, Welfare, etc. (I'm not saying I agree or disagree with these things, just pointing out some examples I am aware of.) While conservatives are very much about individual rights and traditional American values. i.e. gun ownership.

By definition:

Liberals believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.


Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

I do not consider myself either one of these because I cannot align my opinions with either side completely. What I do believe in, is individuals standing up for their rights. It's not "MY rights", it's "OUR rights". The constitutional rights should apply to everyone equally, not just me as an individual.

The point I was trying to make was that people are totally manipulated by how the media spins the stories like this, usually focusing on gun control vs gun rights, instead of focusing on how sad it is that these people did what they did. If the media raised people's awareness of the need for compassion and understanding between individuals, the masses would start being more aware of these needs as well. But I think you and I can agree that that will never happen.
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:35 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,268 posts, read 1,378,474 times
Reputation: 3737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hildegard42 View Post
I understand your cynicism. But I am a little unclear on the point you are trying to make.

Liberals are almost unanimously against individuals owning guns and in favor of government programs designed to help individuals. i.e. the ACA, prenatal care for low income mothers, Welfare, etc. (I'm not saying I agree or disagree with these things, just pointing out some examples I am aware of.) While conservatives are very much about individual rights and traditional American values. i.e. gun ownership.

By definition:

Liberals believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.


Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

I do not consider myself either one of these because I cannot align my opinions with either side completely. What I do believe in, is individuals standing up for their rights. It's not "MY rights", it's "OUR rights". The constitutional rights should apply to everyone equally, not just me as an individual.

The point I was trying to make was that people are totally manipulated by how the media spins the stories like this, usually focusing on gun control vs gun rights, instead of focusing on how sad it is that these people did what they did. If the media raised people's awareness of the need for compassion and understanding between individuals, the masses would start being more aware of these needs as well. But I think you and I can agree that that will never happen.
I don't doubt the media milks these events all it can - as the old adage goes 'if it bleeds it leads'. But I don't believe that the media (here we're talking about it as though it's a single entity) is wrong in focusing on gun control and gun rights - after all, it's pretty fundamental. As for the compassion between individuals I'm not sure whether you're referring to the victims of attacks or the misguided perpetrators - I'd say there's a pretty universal recognition of the sad state of affairs re gun violence. It's the solution and the will to change the situation that's in conflict.
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Old 06-11-2014, 07:50 AM
 
5,474 posts, read 6,147,675 times
Reputation: 14019
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys View Post
Kind of feel like we should just expect this weekly (daily) now!
There, I fixed it for you.

Clearly we need to get the NRA on this and get more guns out there. Hand 'em out in school and get people armed so they can shoot back.

Yup. That's the answer. More guns.
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:26 AM
 
28,411 posts, read 14,178,103 times
Reputation: 19546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Bear View Post
There, I fixed it for you.

Clearly we need to get the NRA on this and get more guns out there. Hand 'em out in school and get people armed so they can shoot back.

Yup. That's the answer. More guns.
Why doesn't gun control work in Mexico? They have 255 million less guns and a much smaller population, but they have a lot more gun murders each year. Oh, and I don't believe they have a NRA there either.
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:05 AM
 
Location: OC, CA
9,862 posts, read 13,230,256 times
Reputation: 8732
Personally I don't like either political party. That said, I haven't seen any discussion of how this shooting occurred in Harry Reid's state, a Democrat that is pro gun.
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:09 AM
 
2,621 posts, read 4,117,514 times
Reputation: 1876
This map shows every school shooting since Sandy Hook

I'd normally insert a snarky/ ironic remark here, but this is way too sad for that.

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