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Old 06-25-2014, 06:10 PM
 
265 posts, read 157,254 times
Reputation: 219

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart G. Griffin View Post

Nobody has the right to hide behind the "It's our culture" argument.


In all these cases and many others besides, the answer is simple and clear - Get a better culture.
Do you even know what you are saying here? Do you know how easily this mindset can turn into something inhuman and disastrous? Do you care?
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:23 PM
 
265 posts, read 157,254 times
Reputation: 219
It's fascinating.

Once Americans railed against imposed taxes and orders from afar issued by mad kings. At least that mad nut invested the Crown in the Colonies. Do modern Starbuck's franchises count when our dear plebes demand other places drop their culture so their frozen milkshake taste sweeter?

Nowadays, everyone on the planet must kneel to the latte and tablet set all out to command the world in what is right and wrong from a narrow POV and a smug pulpit totally lacking in respect for diversity in cultures not their own. They just want a homogenous groupface to reflect the appropriated beliefs they've ingested as a sort of comfort food, not diversity.

America's obesity epidemic is one of the mind too.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:38 PM
 
265 posts, read 157,254 times
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So how many of these 'right-minded people' want to send troops to these countries to force upon them what our culture sees as naturally right for them to do? I mean, that's how we get this freedom thing done right, right 'right-minders'?

You folks hate the Cheneys and Bushes but you'd be more than happy to put the boot of tyranny down on someone else simply to ease your unnecessarily troubled minds as to what their people may or may not want. Do you think humanity is imperfect just so you may save it? Sounds awfully like traditional Christian missionary work to me. How many of you folks in this thread will be signing up for the crusade?

That's the problem with all this 'proactive' busybody social theory is that you have a tendency to become exactly like those whom you claim oppress you and you never notice. It really is none of your business if Saudi Arabia doesn't want trannys walking down the street or if Polish women want to keep wearing babushkas.

It. Is. None. Of. Your. Business.

Should this ramshackle empire ever lose its luster, you wouldn't like it if someplace else tells you how to live. Believe me, all these 'rights' shoved into your heads are mere hopeful illusions. Be thankful you have them when you do. And tolerate (you have heard of the word) other places and other peoples or stop lying about the agenda.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:59 PM
 
460 posts, read 393,076 times
Reputation: 1091
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntBoo View Post
So how many of these 'right-minded people' want to send troops to these countries to force upon them what our culture sees as naturally right for them to do? I mean, that's how we get this freedom thing done right, right 'right-minders'?

You folks hate the Cheneys and Bushes but you'd be more than happy to put the boot of tyranny down on someone else simply to ease your unnecessarily troubled minds as to what their people may or may not want. Do you think humanity is imperfect just so you may save it? Sounds awfully like traditional Christian missionary work to me. How many of you folks in this thread will be signing up for the crusade?

That's the problem with all this 'proactive' busybody social theory is that you have a tendency to become exactly like those whom you claim oppress you and you never notice. It really is none of your business if Saudi Arabia doesn't want trannys walking down the street or if Polish women want to keep wearing babushkas.

It. Is. None. Of. Your. Business.

Should this ramshackle empire ever lose its luster, you wouldn't like it if someplace else tells you how to live. Believe me, all these 'rights' shoved into your heads are mere hopeful illusions. Be thankful you have them when you do. And tolerate (you have heard of the word) other places and other peoples or stop lying about the agenda.
Mmmm. Yeah, if Saudi Arabia wants to subjugate random subsets of people or jail people for things that reams of scientific evidence comes from a combination of genetic and gestational development, we should have *no problem* with it, right? I mean, all they are doing is abusing human beings based on ignorance. There is no difference, in actuality, between colonialist abuses of other people (like the Belgians in the Congo causing millions of deaths and de facto slavery) and a nation doing it to its own people. Something doesn't magically transmorph into a valuable or useful policy by virtue of originating from a nation's "own" dictator as opposed to the dictator from a person in a bordering nation.

I mean, this question is just begging for Godwin's Law to be invoked, though it appears you'd be on the side of he-who-shall-not-be-named. Just keep the horrors inside the Third Reich, eh?

This isn't even necessarily about moral relativism but about utility. Do these laws increase utility, make people healthier and happier? Do they make for a more thriving and functional society, on all levels, for all people, regardless of the accident of birth for those individuals? Do they accomplish ANYTHING other than the perpetuation of current power structures for their own ignorant sake?

I'm not willing to send troops in, nor do I think that would be effective. But economic sanctions against the powerful who perpetuate these ills, hell yeah. Castigation and pressures to sign treaties or as a precondition to business deals? ABSOLUTELY.
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:10 PM
 
Location: MN
1,306 posts, read 1,346,903 times
Reputation: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Joe Biden is an idiot, and if he'd spend more time cleaning up this nation, instead of worrying about what people do in their bedrooms, we'd all be better for it.

There is crime out there, two fold, women being raped and their throats slit, people in Philly and large cities being shot every single day, our infostructure is falling apart, our governmentally funded systems are all broken, and Biden is worried about gays? Typical.
What I don't get is why is it so important to direct his message to those from other countries about how they are so inhumane and prejudiced, when we have the same here? Did he decide American culture is so worthless it's better to worry about those abroad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntBoo View Post
It's fascinating.

Once Americans railed against imposed taxes and orders from afar issued by mad kings. At least that mad nut invested the Crown in the Colonies. Do modern Starbuck's franchises count when our dear plebes demand other places drop their culture so their frozen milkshake taste sweeter?

Nowadays, everyone on the planet must kneel to the latte and tablet set all out to command the world in what is right and wrong from a narrow POV and a smug pulpit totally lacking in respect for diversity in cultures not their own. They just want a homogenous groupface to reflect the appropriated beliefs they've ingested as a sort of comfort food, not diversity.

America's obesity epidemic is one of the mind too.
Yes, thank you. I mentioned the gay issue just seems like a launch pad to interfere abroad...under the guise of "justice" and "promoting equality."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
US politicians have for a long, long time pontificated about how other nations should run their countries. This is nothing new.

But it would have been good if the previous administration had shown at least the same level of concern for Christians in China as we went into the 2008 Summer Olympics as this administration showed for LGBT going into the 2014 winter Olympics. There's no shame in a politicion putting his money where his mouth is.
I agree with you, but that wasn't going to happen. Politicians aren't particularly concerned about putting their money where their mouths are because it's about appealing to certain groups, as it always has been. In this case, it's the feel-goodness surrounding the gay issue. The issue of whether or not gays have the same rights is just the facade because if equality were the real concern, they'd be talking about how inhumane it is to target small ethnic tribe populations and minority religious groups. But they don't.
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:12 PM
 
Location: MN
1,306 posts, read 1,346,903 times
Reputation: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhitegocubs View Post
Mmmm. Yeah, if Saudi Arabia wants to subjugate random subsets of people or jail people for things that reams of scientific evidence comes from a combination of genetic and gestational development, we should have *no problem* with it, right? I mean, all they are doing is abusing human beings based on ignorance. There is no difference, in actuality, between colonialist abuses of other people (like the Belgians in the Congo causing millions of deaths and de facto slavery) and a nation doing it to its own people. Something doesn't magically transmorph into a valuable or useful policy by virtue of originating from a nation's "own" dictator as opposed to the dictator from a person in a bordering nation.

I mean, this question is just begging for Godwin's Law to be invoked, though it appears you'd be on the side of he-who-shall-not-be-named. Just keep the horrors inside the Third Reich, eh?

This isn't even necessarily about moral relativism but about utility. Do these laws increase utility, make people healthier and happier? Do they make for a more thriving and functional society, on all levels, for all people, regardless of the accident of birth for those individuals? Do they accomplish ANYTHING other than the perpetuation of current power structures for their own ignorant sake?

I'm not willing to send troops in, nor do I think that would be effective. But economic sanctions against the powerful who perpetuate these ills, hell yeah. Castigation and pressures to sign treaties or as a precondition to business deals? ABSOLUTELY.
The Western North American definition of "make people healthier and happier" is vastly different from those of other countries. Their definition of a thriving and functional society is different. Do you think having a strong Western influence has always been well-received? Did Iran see any good in it? If they did, the country wouldn't have made a cultural pendulum shift. Our values are not their values, as it is with most countries. Why is it okay to start defining values and then dictate who should have the same?
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:19 PM
 
Location: MN
1,306 posts, read 1,346,903 times
Reputation: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffie View Post
Sweeping ideas like these are fine on paper, but in practice it's best if every country on earth keep the hairy eyeball on every other country when it comes to human rights. Putting an equals sign between what Joe Biden said and Nazi Germany is completely bass-ackwards. Now, the anti-gay laws in Uganda are definitely in the same ballpark as Nazi Germany's policies. Almost as soon as you pass a law like that anywhere, someone in the neighborhood goes to the drawing board to get to work on an extermination plan for the undesirables. If you can find a way to push tolerance and inclusion in a country like that, you move farther away from genocide, not closer to it. That is probably Biden's whole point.
I agree with you in the fact many of the laws toe the line of fall into Nazi Germany's policies. That part isn't any point of contention as far as I'm concerned. The problem I see here is culture doesn't magically change simply because countries eliminate the law to incarcerate a gay person or a transvestite. Sure, it's no longer legal to put them in jail, torture, or kill them but the fact is culture is a very complex concept. There is still social isolation, shunning, ostracizing, an "unspoken rule" to deny services or make it difficult to receive services, etc. Laws can be implemented until the stack hits the sky, but you cannot legislate people's beliefs, attitudes, ideas, etc. Entire cultures should not be punished for not conforming to another culture's beliefs, and that's what I see Biden saying.
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:37 PM
 
2,042 posts, read 1,480,009 times
Reputation: 3313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage_girl View Post
It's not that I don't care about people getting killed simply for existing for being different. I don't see the point in "promoting" the idea countries have to change their laws or their cultures just so they are more palatable to us. What Biden is doing is pushing a mild form of ethnocentrism-- "a good culture would do this and change this way, blah blah" without realizing there are actual ramifications.

This has been done before. Feminists went into other countries promoting equality of women and no one cared for it. Why? Because these cultures didn't see how feminism was relevant to them or how it would benefit them. It doesn't matter how outraged we get, how disgusted we are, or how much we condemn. If another country doesn't change their own attitude toward it, we're just telling them how they should think and what they should do.
Its not "mild ethnocentrism"...Gay rights activism has always been steeped in ethnocentrism...specifically eurocentrism & white supremacy. The root of gay rights activism is the fundamental belief that westernized white eurocentric "culture" is simply better and more enlightened, than non white cultures...you notice white "scholars" only consider their languages the only "romantic" languages. Im sure theres a "scientific" basis for that also. Just like the "scientists" who once backed a govt that considered its own citizenry less than human, or the "scientists and doctors" who conducted medical experiments on selected portions of the U.S. population...yet now everyone is expected to accept the word of this same science community as law in present day America...lol

When liberal whites speak of globalism, or worldliness etc...and wanting to be like the rest of the "world" and so forth, they really are only speaking of a handful of european nations and possibly canada. Everyone else, they either seek to parent or lord over...in the name of "enlightenment" of course. But in truth they only view other white nations as being worth aspiring to be like and deserving of respect. Any other cultures are viewed as being inherently "primative", "backwards", "uneducated", and "unenlightened" by white standards...which in their eyes, is all that matters...your culture doesnt matter because quite frankly, mine is better..because I said so. Theyll hide behind the guise of "well these are the only advanced, 1st world, economically prosperous nations yada yada"...nevermind the fact that the U.S' s. most educated groups arent even white, nor are they from europe...yet the cultures of their homelands are considered inherently inferior because they dont lap up whatever brand of politically correct group think westernized countries do.

Last edited by soletaire; 06-25-2014 at 08:16 PM..
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:48 PM
 
265 posts, read 157,254 times
Reputation: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhitegocubs View Post
Mmmm. Yeah, if Saudi Arabia wants to subjugate random subsets of people or jail people for things that reams of scientific evidence comes from a combination of genetic and gestational development, we should have *no problem* with it, right? I mean, all they are doing is abusing human beings based on ignorance. There is no difference, in actuality, between colonialist abuses of other people (like the Belgians in the Congo causing millions of deaths and de facto slavery) and a nation doing it to its own people. Something doesn't magically transmorph into a valuable or useful policy by virtue of originating from a nation's "own" dictator as opposed to the dictator from a person in a bordering nation.

I mean, this question is just begging for Godwin's Law to be invoked, though it appears you'd be on the side of he-who-shall-not-be-named. Just keep the horrors inside the Third Reich, eh?

This isn't even necessarily about moral relativism but about utility. Do these laws increase utility, make people healthier and happier? Do they make for a more thriving and functional society, on all levels, for all people, regardless of the accident of birth for those individuals? Do they accomplish ANYTHING other than the perpetuation of current power structures for their own ignorant sake?

I'm not willing to send troops in, nor do I think that would be effective. But economic sanctions against the powerful who perpetuate these ills, hell yeah. Castigation and pressures to sign treaties or as a precondition to business deals? ABSOLUTELY.
You simply do not understand and neither do your comrades: It isn't your business to culturally assimilate another place simply because it makes you feel good while shouting how wonderful diversity is. If you celebrate diversity you must celebrate that which you may not like. There is no alternative even if feel-good academics stay mum on the subject as the car salesperson says nothing of the defects in a used car. They are just doing their jobs spinning, selling and convincing. Tenure ain't cheap.

Just as much, other places shouldn't be pillaged for their resources like Iraq.

And why invoke the 'Third Reich'? I think because at the end of it all that is akin to what progressives actually want, without knowing it of course because their wishes are really sweet. There is no right to be either happy/unhappy, healthy/unhealthy. Laws made to 'increase utility' sound interesting. What sort of laws will increase utility and how will they do so and utility in accomplishing what exactly, busy profit-earning for a corporate hierarchy? Thriving, functioning society on all levels despite (Oh progressives and your hate for your fellow human!) the 'accident of birth'. Planned societies will certainly remove any of that errant diversity that feels wrong, eh? I don't know what makes 'current power structures' ignorant. Any power structure seeks to create more power to use it, transport it or maintain it. That is what they accomplish. How is that ignorant? Moral relativism?

And sanctions. Make them suffer until they cave in to our demands! Send in the UN, IMF, WHO and whatever other collection of letters to inform them that in order to get money and attention they must do this, this and this so that they can be 'on the same page' with us. Yet these same tactics are usually considered extortion under different situations that don't involve instilling our sense of rights unto a culture we see as 'unfortunate'.

But I agree with you 100% at the end. Sanctions and embargoes on all the rich, ALL THE RICH! They simply are not on the same page with me and they aren't on your page either as all they want is to enlarge their current power structure by any means necessary and homogeneity is the easiest way to create new markets and if you can make 'diversity' trinkets into a special interest item like so many different Pokémon that must be caught.

Quote:
Something doesn't magically transmorph into a valuable or useful policy by virtue of originating from a nation's "own" dictator as opposed to the dictator from a person in a bordering nation.
Agreed! So what makes European or American virtues necessary exports to other places if not internal vanity and comfort (and to grow 'current power structures' elsewhere)?
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:31 PM
 
Location: SoCal
5,708 posts, read 4,289,800 times
Reputation: 1855
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
Biden's specific direction was to "promote" justice, not impose it. He talked about adding "voices".
In that case, how about he starts by asking and/or pressuring U.S. allies such as Saudi Arabia to stop executing gay people?
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