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Old 07-08-2014, 10:52 AM
 
3,519 posts, read 4,366,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys View Post
"First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers."

From your link, and these manufacturers, and others are making parts in China. How can the American worker compete with this? Mitt's maid makes more. Less retirement? I just don't see how less wages and benefits help the American worker? I actually like Mitt, but he's the one who said it.
Although the wages maybe lower elsewhere, there are costs associated with importing to and doing business with the US that US companies don't have to shoulder. He said that costs have to come down, no where did he say "to the point of poverty", to be competitive. He's much harder on the executives. He states, "Management must go" and "The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end."

In addition, he says:

Quote:
The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.
In this letter, he much harder on management than the UAW worker. He emphatically stated that it was management who was guilty of excess.

The whole op ed piece was written to urge the feds not to give the American car companies a bailout. And although I'm not a Romney fan, I agree with this.
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Old 07-08-2014, 10:55 AM
 
3,519 posts, read 4,366,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiseManOnceSaid View Post
The average UAW worker makes $28 per hour. This comes out to just under $60K per year, which is just slightly higher than the foreign auto manufacturers's pay in their American factories. Foreign owned factories here in the US pay between $20 and $26 per hour average, which certainly gives them a leg-up while competing. If the wage gap was any greater, the UAW would have an easier time organizing those factories, so the non-union manufacturers keep the wages close to what UAW pays, mainly to prevent UAW from invading their workers.

The big three's active workers also pick up an average of $10 per hour in benefits.

However, when you pair this with the costs of benefits for retirees, you push the AVERAGE cost of each active Big Three worker up to the $70 per hour range.
That's not bad for a job that doesn't even need a college degree, especially when you factor in overtime pay, which I don't receive. I have to work as many hours as it takes and my pay doesn't change.
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Old 07-08-2014, 11:17 AM
 
6,361 posts, read 7,344,952 times
Reputation: 10822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye Burgher View Post
The rioting that occurred after Dr. King was killed was the first big shove to a lot of people.
A slight but important correction: the rioting that occurred in Detroit was not a response to Dr. King's assassination (which was on April 1, 1968). It happened the year before in July, 1967. During the 60s, there were several riots in major cities across the U.S--in Philadephia, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago and many other cities. All of those riots preceded the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. The 60s were a tumultuous time.

The assassination, however, did trigger numerous other riots across the U.S, including in such cities as Baltimore, Washington D.C., New York and Chicago.

Detroit was not unique in that it had a major riot; nor is Detroit's present situation unique since numerous major cities across the U.S. suffer from deteriorating infrastructure and a poor population which is unable to support it.

One of the significant aftermaths of the 1967 Riot, however, was court-imposed busing which was meant to desegregate the Detroit school system. Since it wasn't cross-district busing, however, the effect turned out to be just the opposite as the early 70s witnessed the greatest period of "white flight" from the city. But busing didn't just happen in Detroit, either.

The are many reasons why Detroit--and so many other cities across the U.S.--are in their present-day condition. To try to attribute it to one cause is faulty; and it is especially erroneous to try to say that it was caused by either the right or the left. Many of the causes were truly bi-partisan in nature...and neither side has had very good answers.
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:22 PM
 
Location: South Minneapolis
4,530 posts, read 5,063,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys View Post
Mitt Romney wrote an op ed piece in the NYT which said the American worker needs to work for the same wages as the Chinese. Is this truly the answer for what ails the American working class? Detroit's decline is no different that any other city who's lost population in America once the industry that made it great moves away. No different the gold town boom towns here in Nevada, and California, or some of the oil booms in the mid West. The real problems are the people who chose to use others misfortunes as a political tool to gain an agenda.
This is a complete list of all op-eds written by Mitt Romney since 2008. No where has he said that the America worker needs to work for the same wages as the Chinese.

Op-eds by Mitt Romney | Mitt Romney Central

If you are referring to this NYT op-ed "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" it's a favorite of the left because the headline raised quite a stir.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/op...mney.html?_r=0

What is seldom discussed is that in an obvious bit of electioneering the headline was written by the New York Times and not by Mitt Romney! No where does it say anything close to what you say, or anything close to what the headline says either for that matter. It actually comes down hard on management and not the workers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys View Post
"First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers."

From your link, and these manufacturers, and others are making parts in China. How can the American worker compete with this? Mitt's maid makes more. Less retirement? I just don't see how less wages and benefits help the American worker? I actually like Mitt, but he's the one who said it.
BMW, Honda, Nissan Toyota and other foreign based manufacturers have plants in the US and that's what he's talking about. The Big 3 also have plants in Mexico and Asia and source parts from those locations. There's more US content in a Toyota pick up than in a Chevy.

Last edited by Glenfield; 07-08-2014 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:41 PM
 
6,361 posts, read 7,344,952 times
Reputation: 10822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenfield View Post
If you are referring to this NYT op-ed "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" it's a favorite of the left because the headline raised quite a stir.
You don't have to be a leftie to know that Mitt Romney was dead wrong on that one! Thank goodness that wiser minds prevailed. The Michigan economy--and the national one, too--have improved remarkably with the turnaround of the auto industry!
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:45 PM
Status: "It takes a lot of balls to golf like me" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Charleston, SC
3,984 posts, read 3,202,667 times
Reputation: 3417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdeen View Post
That's not bad for a job that doesn't even need a college degree, especially when you factor in overtime pay, which I don't receive. I have to work as many hours as it takes and my pay doesn't change.
Exactly, there's the argument that UAW workers are raping and pillaging the Big Three, but, if you look at the numbers, they are realistically on par with the rest of America.

The retiree benefits probably need to be looked at, but wages and benefits is not that out of line. Funny story: I have a friend that works on the line up in Detroit, he told me one time that the Unions are so strong, that he could literally smoke crack while standing on the assembly line, pass out, and wake up to still have a job.
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Cold Springs, NV
4,576 posts, read 9,096,180 times
Reputation: 4997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdeen View Post
Although the wages maybe lower elsewhere, there are costs associated with importing to and doing business with the US that US companies don't have to shoulder. He said that costs have to come down, no where did he say "to the point of poverty", to be competitive. He's much harder on the executives. He states, "Management must go" and "The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end."

In addition, he says:



In this letter, he much harder on management than the UAW worker. He emphatically stated that it was management who was guilty of excess.

The whole op ed piece was written to urge the feds not to give the American car companies a bailout. And although I'm not a Romney fan, I agree with this.
I agree with a majority of this, but can never condone calls for wage cuts for working class Americans. I also admire GW Bush for the TARP bill that provided for the auto bailouts. It was a bold step, and took guts to go against extremist party ideals to do the right thing for our country. Of course we'll never know how bad it would have gotten had he not pushed for this, and there will always be the armchair quarterback to question it. Governments across the globe were taking similar actions, and even Toyota took money from Japan.

Other governments in Western Europe have thriving economies without creating a peasant working class. I'm a retired Union carpenter, and some would say I'm not worth what I was paid when working. I call BS on this ideal, and it took years of working, and going to school at night to become better in my field. America used to honor labor, and now some try to berate hard working Americans with claims it's an easy job and anyone could do it. I will never support the current trend in increasing wage inequality in America. We have the lowest tax rates of any industrialized nations except Mexico, and Brazil.
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:14 PM
 
9,113 posts, read 5,678,843 times
Reputation: 5270
Quote:
Originally Posted by hapaleeretired View Post
I just got an email this morning that fits this subject matter to a T:



Saul Alinsky died about 43 years ago, but his writings influenced those in
political control of our nation today.......
Recall that Hillary did her college thesis on his writings and Obama
writes about him in his books.

Died: June 12, 1972, Carmel-by-the-Sea, Ca
Education: University of Chicago
Spouse: Irene Alinsky
Books: Rules for Radicals, Reveille for Radicals

Anyone out there think that this stuff isn't happening today in the U.S. ?

All eight rules are currently in play

How to create a social state by Saul Alinsky:
There are eight levels of control that must be obtained before you
are able to create a social state. The first is the most important.

1) Healthcare = Control healthcare and you control the people

2) Poverty = Increase the Poverty level as high as possible, poor
people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are
providing everything for them to live.

3) Debt = Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way
you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty.
4) Gun Control = Remove the ability to defend themselves from
the Government. That way you are able to create a police state.
5) Welfare = Take control of every aspect of their lives (Food,
Housing, and Income)
6) Education = Take control of what people read and listen to
take control of what children learn in school.
7) Religion = Remove the belief in the God from the Government
and schools
8) Class Warfare = Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor.
This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take (Tax) the
wealthy with the support of the poor.

Does any of this sound like what is happening to the United States?
It certainly appears that way... but nahhh , it could never happen this is Murica after all. As long as people can keep watching those stupid daughters of that attorney guy , drinking their Starbucks and playing with their Smartphones they will never see it coming until it's too late.
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:18 PM
 
11 posts, read 23,403 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys View Post
Other governments in Western Europe have thriving economies without creating a peasant working class. I'm a retired Union carpenter, and some would say I'm not worth what I was paid when working. I call BS on this ideal, and it took years of working, and going to school at night to become better in my field. America used to honor labor, and now some try to berate hard working Americans with claims it's an easy job and anyone could do it. I will never support the current trend in increasing wage inequality in America. We have the lowest tax rates of any industrialized nations except Mexico, and Brazil.
MrWillys, I think that your original interpretation of the Romney statement, that US workers needed to work for the same wages as the Chinese, because the other companies mentioned used Chinese parts, was more than a bit of a stretch.

However, I am totally in agreement with your statement about what it takes to make it in the trades. I know that electricians start out as an apprentice, move to journeyman, and eventually become master, through study, on the job training, and just plain hard work. I assume the same is true for carpenters, plumbers, steam fitters, etc. In this regard, I think unions are the same as the old guild system, keeping the skills up. Because you can't make big bucks as an apprentice, too many of the "I want it now" generation aren't willing to do the hard work for an eventual payoff.

Unions get a lot of bad press, and a lot of it is of their own making, with the UAW being high on the list. And people tend to remember bad stories more than good ones. I will remember the statement earlier in the thread regarding being able to smoke crack on the line, pass out, and wake up still having a job for quite a while, even if it was 100% said in jest. I remember years ago being angry that my salary as a computer programmer was less than a UAW fork lift operator, who I was told was making over $17/hour. I had to go to school, and continually update my skills, and considered this to be out of line. This was quite a while back.

Yes, the corporate executives are bleeding the companies for all they can get. I can't blame the downfall of Detroit on any one factor, and really see no hope for recovery. I consider myself smart, but not that smart.
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:56 PM
 
3,519 posts, read 4,366,096 times
Reputation: 4596
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys View Post
I agree with a majority of this, but can never condone calls for wage cuts for working class Americans. I also admire GW Bush for the TARP bill that provided for the auto bailouts. It was a bold step, and took guts to go against extremist party ideals to do the right thing for our country. Of course we'll never know how bad it would have gotten had he not pushed for this, and there will always be the armchair quarterback to question it. Governments across the globe were taking similar actions, and even Toyota took money from Japan.
Although we disagree regarding bailouts, I think we agree more than we disagree.

Quote:
Other governments in Western Europe have thriving economies without creating a peasant working class. I'm a retired Union carpenter, and some would say I'm not worth what I was paid when working. I call BS on this ideal, and it took years of working, and going to school at night to become better in my field.
In all honesty, I have no idea what a union carpenter makes. I assume, though, that if you were working and taking classes at night that you achieved a level of mastery that is above and beyond the norm and analogous with those who are formally educated via a university. You can find anyone that says any number of professions are not worth what they are paid. It's difficult to not take it personally, I know.

Quote:
America used to honor labor, and now some try to berate hard working Americans with claims it's an easy job and anyone could do it.
You won't get an disagreement from me here. I'm a teacher and I don't know of any other profession maligned more than mine. What does bother me is when another another trade/profession that requires less education, is less demanding, and has no idea what I actually do, demands that I make less than they do.

Quote:
I will never support the current trend in increasing wage inequality in America. We have the lowest tax rates of any industrialized nations except Mexico, and Brazil.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we should support the current trend in increasing wage inequality. The letter you cited was the biggest support of that statement.

When discussing the developed/industrialized nations, Mexico and Brazil are not viable comparisons. They don't even crack the top ten of which the US is number one. We do, however, have low taxes relative to other highly industrialized countries. And that is a trade-off. There are countries, and Germany is a good example, that make it work but their model would likely be poorly executed here.
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