Detroit's long decline

[rzzz]

Originally Posted by pigeonhole

I'm talking of Las Vegas of course.

Vegas isn't doing that great. Jobs and housing got trashed in 2008. Most foreclosures in the country in 2009, one of highest unemployment rates at that time too. Jobs have recovered but are still not near levels before 2008. Of course, Detroit is worse off, but Vegas isn't the greatest counterexample.

[Rubi3]

To say the decline of Detroit is due to the far right is only something that would be said by someone on the far left. Blaming it on one extremist group is ridiculous, to say the least.

[MrWillys]

Originally Posted by Rubi3

To say the decline of Detroit is due to the far right is only something that would be said by someone on the far left. Blaming it on one extremist group is ridiculous, to say the least.

Then you will also agree blaming it on the left is ridiculous? I think Detroit's decline is mainly a product of globalization, and the American worker not being able to compete against foreign labor, and corporate CEO's zest for more profits for it's shareholders.

[Everdeen]

Originally Posted by MrWillys

Mitt Romney wrote an op ed piece in the NYT which said the American worker needs to work for the same wages as the Chinese. Is this truly the answer for what ails the American working class?

I'm not a big fan of Romney but that's not exactly what he said. It was more in the context of excess and he included the salaries of the executives as well later in the same op ed.

Originally Posted by Driller1

Can you post a link with that statement from Romney???

Here you go:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html

[MrWillys]

Originally Posted by Everdeen

I'm not a big fan of Romney but that's not exactly what he said. It was more in the context of excess and he included the salaries of the executives as well later in the same op ed.


Here you go:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html

"First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers."

From your link, and these manufacturers, and others are making parts in China. How can the American worker compete with this? Mitt's maid makes more. Less retirement? I just don't see how less wages and benefits help the American worker? I actually like Mitt, but he's the one who said it.

[WiseManOnceSaid]

The average UAW worker makes $28 per hour. This comes out to just under $60K per year, which is just slightly higher than the foreign auto manufacturers's pay in their American factories. Foreign owned factories here in the US pay between $20 and $26 per hour average, which certainly gives them a leg-up while competing. If the wage gap was any greater, the UAW would have an easier time organizing those factories, so the non-union manufacturers keep the wages close to what UAW pays, mainly to prevent UAW from invading their workers.

The big three's active workers also pick up an average of $10 per hour in benefits.

However, when you pair this with the costs of benefits for retirees, you push the AVERAGE cost of each active Big Three worker up to the $70 per hour range.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by pigeonhole

Suddenly with the Peak Oil, Peak Water, Peak Everything debate looming, I have a question : why is a city like Detroit, geographically located in the heart of the country close to waterways, rivers, rich agricultural plains, declining, whereas a kind of spaceship built in the desert in the middle of nowhere is flourishing? it seems to me there is something very wrong here in terms of resource allocation and overall sustainability. Blue skies certainly can't be the only answer.

Interesting that you are bringing up geography. So much about Detroit points to water, all the way down to Detroit's name. In fact, this video might explain it better.


Detroit, more than just automobiles Why geography is very important for Detroit - YouTube

[Anony-Momma]

Originally Posted by robertpasa

I've read that Detroit's population has been declining since 1950. Wasn't there a better period when the car industry was strong, like the early 70s? Why was it declining even back then?

City leadership didn't help the situation for many decades.

[Buckeye Burgher]

Originally Posted by robertpasa

I've read that Detroit's population has been declining since 1950. Wasn't there a better period when the car industry was strong, like the early 70s? Why was it declining even back then?

My in-laws moved to Detroit in 1960. They have home movies they shot at the time which reveal
a prosperous, bustling place.

Just a short decade later, not so much. They had fled to the suburbs by then, along with a whole lot of other people. The rioting that occurred after Dr. King was killed was the first big shove to a lot of people.

The nasty aspect of this that nobody wants to talk about is racial. When Coleman Young was elected as the first black Mayor of Detroit, he engaged in inflammatory rhetoric which scared the bejabbers out of Detroit's white middle class. I don't think it was the fact that he was black per-se so much as he was engaging in public statements which whites perceived to be threatening.

That started a steady bleed on the tax base from which Detroit has never recovered.
When I lived in the area in the late 1980's the Detroit News reviewed census data and found
that the city of Detroit was 80% black. Just north of 8 Mile, in the five largest suburban
communities with a combined population of 500,000, they could identify only 3000 black families.

Those are South Africa-type numbers.

That has also changed in recent years, as the black middle class has now also quit Detroit.
Leaving a dwindling population of increasingly poorer people and a crumbling infrastructure.
And no funds with which to rebuild it all.

[hapaleeretired]

Originally Posted by MrWillys

What I find amazing is those who want to blame the workers for quality, and or profits. What about the management at these companies? As a former construction supervisor when mistakes were made I always took responsibility and thought about what I could have done better. Currently both Union and non union companies have shifted America's manufacturing to foreign countries in search of cost cutting cheaper labor. How can this shift be considered the American worker, and or unions fault that people in other countries will work for a fraction of our minimum wage? How can a worker in an Alabama Nissan plant making $9 that qualifies for food stamps, and subsidized healthcare be better than a UAW member who can provide for a family, and send their kids to college?

Mitt Romney wrote an op ed piece in the NYT which said the American worker needs to work for the same wages as the Chinese. Is this truly the answer for what ails the American working class? Detroit's decline is no different that any other city who's lost population in America once the industry that made it great moves away. No different the gold town boom towns here in Nevada, and California, or some of the oil booms in the mid West. The real problems are the people who chose to use others misfortunes as a political tool to gain an agenda.

I just got an email this morning that fits this subject matter to a T:



Saul Alinsky died about 43 years ago, but his writings influenced those in
political control of our nation today.......
Recall that Hillary did her college thesis on his writings and Obama
writes about him in his books.

Died: June 12, 1972, Carmel-by-the-Sea, Ca
Education: University of Chicago
Spouse: Irene Alinsky
Books: Rules for Radicals, Reveille for Radicals

Anyone out there think that this stuff isn't happening today in the U.S. ?

All eight rules are currently in play

How to create a social state by Saul Alinsky:
There are eight levels of control that must be obtained before you
are able to create a social state. The first is the most important.

1) Healthcare = Control healthcare and you control the people

2) Poverty = Increase the Poverty level as high as possible, poor
people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are
providing everything for them to live.

3) Debt = Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way
you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty.
4) Gun Control = Remove the ability to defend themselves from
the Government. That way you are able to create a police state.
5) Welfare = Take control of every aspect of their lives (Food,
Housing, and Income)
6) Education = Take control of what people read and listen to
take control of what children learn in school.
7) Religion = Remove the belief in the God from the Government
and schools
8) Class Warfare = Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor.
This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take (Tax) the
wealthy with the support of the poor.

Does any of this sound like what is happening to the United States?