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Old 09-28-2014, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,062 posts, read 16,081,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
There are three other posts who relied to my post with a similar sentiment. The biggest problem I have with this is what it means to free speech. It means that your employer will control how much free speech you have, even outside of work. To me that is unacceptable. Another poster rightly said the constitution only protects you from government reprisals against your speech. I believe we need laws to protect you from your employer when using your free speech rights as long as you are not on their time. What value is it if I have free speech if my employer can fire me for using it??? The answer is that it has no value, unless of course I don't need a job.

Political correctness is being enforced through employers these days, since the social progressives have figured out they will never have it enforced by the government. Corporations give in to and fear the lawsuits and boycotts of liberal special interest groups so they enforce political correctness in a more and more aggressive nature all the time. Big brother appears to be living on Wall street these days, that is where we are losing a lot of our freedoms. Sad thing is that a lot of folks think this is ok. I have a right to my political views, and to speak out on them on my own time without fearing my employer will hear them and fire me.

If your a Christian and believe in traditional values, believe homosexuality is sin, then you should be able to speak out on it. If you don't support Obamacare then you have a right to speak out on it without fearing for losing your job. This goes for people with very unpopular views as well. If you are a racist, you have a right to speak out on your own time without fearing for your job. If you are a communist then you have the same right. While you may find the views of some people detestable, it is critical for our freedom that they can speak out without fear of reprisal. If they cannot speak out then how free are we??? The issue of companies firing people for political speech has only become a problem in recent years as special interest groups began infiltrating the corporate cultures of America.

In response to their attempt to silence what they see as their political opposition we need new laws, or an expansion of our freedom of speech. I don't see why any corporation should have the right to control your speech or behavior when you are not on their time, or speaking in their name. We are not their indentured servants or their slaves. They may have the right to get away with this now, but in my opinion its a flaw in our laws that has allowed them this right. Its time to fix it.
Freedom of speech has always had consequences. Always. Employers very seldom will come back at your for generally accepted exercises of your rights. For example, the racist dirtbag in question was a political activist. Given her political and social views, it's not hard to imagine what that means. That was perfectly fine. The employer never fired her for being an anti-immigration, big fence activist. That's generally accepted free speech. I completely disagree with it, am pro-immigration, and so on. That's also generally accepted free speech. What she did was crossed the line and posted a video of her being a racist dirtbag and harassing some poor lady for being Mexican. That's not generally accepted. The company fired her for being a racist. The company has just as much right to free speech as she does. Good job Coldwell Banker in my book. Now, had they fired her for just being a big fence activist and not harassing Mexicans for kicks and giggles, I'd completely disagree with their decision. I'd still completely agree they have a right to freedom of association. Legally, of course, you have no right to that for protected classes. I generally disagree there and think you should have at least some right to freedom of association even there, although perhaps it should be metered by the judicial system. Eg, a church should be able to fire a minister who is active in the LGBT community just as an LGBT advocacy group should be able to (and are able to) fire someone who on their free time espouses homophobic opinions. Now, should a restaurant be able to have a no Mexicans or blacks next to their no shoes, no shirt, no service sign? To me that's a delicate question. You're certainly restricting freedom of speech in saying no, you can't discriminate on the basis of race. Maybe some restrictions are necessary. On the other hand, it's easy to go too far there. The CEO of Chick-fil-A is a homophobe, and I don't think we should become Britain where it's illegal publicize that you're a homophobe because it might offend someone.

No you have no such right. Your employer has a right to freedom of association, however. Freedom of speech "for me and me alone" isn't and hasn't ever been what freedom of speech means. Again, I'm extremely pro-free speech. I absolutely and unequivocally think the lady has the right to be a racist dirtbag, a Nazi, whatever she wants to be. I also absolutely and unequivocally think the company has the right to free speech, which includes freedom of association. Personally, I think they made the right call and fired her. I don't care if you don't think so or not. That's completely at your prerogative. You're completely welcome to your opinion, and I'm completely welcome to disagree with it. If I work for you, you're completely free to fire me for disagreeing with your political views.

Again absolutely not. You're completely free to speak out against ObamaCare just as your employer is completely free to fire you for doing so. Freedom of speech means being free to have unpopular opinions. I don't think that firing people for being opposed to ObamaCare is going to be that popular. Certainly for me, I would generally consider that to be extreme. And, yes, I am critical of ObamaCare. It's done a lot of harm, especially for low-wage workers who have had their insurance cut. For me personally, Obama lied. No reason to sugar coat it. Millions of people such as myself were lied to that we would not lose our insurance.

And I thought it was the liberals that wanted a law for everything

And yes, I'm one of the 10-20% (depending on political affiliations) of Americans that actually believes that Citizens vs. United was, in general, more of a good decision than a bad one. That's extremely unpopular across both parties. It's not that I particularly like the decision. It's just I feel that free speech is more important and it was the lesser of two evils.

Last edited by Malloric; 09-28-2014 at 10:13 PM..
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Old 09-28-2014, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,523 posts, read 7,463,600 times
Reputation: 10925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Freedom of speech has always had consequences. Always. Employers very seldom will come back at your for generally accepted exercises of your rights. For example, the racist dirtbag in question was a political activist. Given her political and social views, it's not hard to imagine what that means. That was perfectly fine. The employer never fired her for being an anti-immigration, big fence activist. That's generally accepted free speech. I completely disagree with it, am pro-immigration, and so on. That's also generally accepted free speech. What she did was crossed the line and posted a video of her being a racist dirtbag and harassing some poor lady for being Mexican. That's not generally accepted. The company fired her for being a racist. The company has just as much right to free speech as she does. Good job Coldwell Banker in my book. Now, had they fired her for just being a big fence activist and not harassing Mexicans for kicks and giggles, I'd completely disagree.

No you have no such right. Your employer has a right to freedom of association, however. Freedom of speech for me and me alone isn't and hasn't ever been what freedom of speech means. Again, I'm extremely pro-free speech. I absolutely and unequivocally think the lady has the right to be a racist dirtbag, a Nazi, whatever she wants to be. I also absolutely and unequivocally think the company has the right to free speech, which includes freedom of association. Personally, I think they made the right call and fired her. I don't care if you don't think so or not. That's completely at your prerogative.

Again absolutely not. You're completely free to speak out against ObamaCare just as your employer is completely free to fire you for doing so. Freedom of speech means being free to have unpopular opinions. I don't think that firing people for being opposed to ObamaCare is going to be that popular. Certainly for me, I would generally consider that to be extreme. And, yes, I am critical of ObamaCare. It's done a lot of harm, especially for low-wage workers who have had their insurance cut. For me personally, Obama lied. No reason to sugar coat it. Millions of people such as myself were lied to that we would not lose our insurance.

And I thought it was the liberals that wanted a law for everything

And yes, I'm one of the 10-20% (depending on political affiliations) of Americans that actually believes that Citizens vs. United was, in general, more of a good decision than a bad one. That's extremely unpopular across both parties. It's not that I particularly like the decision. It's just I feel that free speech is more important and it was the lesser of two evils.

First I don't really support that woman at all. She is a loon and she harassed that poor woman for nothing. Had she been charged with trespassing and harassement (which maybe should have happened) I think then her employer had every right to fire her for breaking the law. However what she was fired for was her very vocal political activism and that to me is why I have a problem with it. I have made my case and will not repeat myself, but I will say I find your views extremely frightening. Worse yet I know a lot of the millennial generation agrees with you, so our freedoms days are numbered. I have no idea what your politics are and don't care. What I care about is the fact that social activists have found a way to silence me using my ability to keep a job. They have gone around the spirit of the constitution and found a loop. Its totally legal for these employers to do this, and liberal activists groups are having great success manipulating big corporations into enforcing political correctness. The sheeple of this country don't see what is going on here. First it will only be blatant racists like the lady in the video. It is easy to have no sympathy for her, so who wants to stand up for her rights. Then it will be very vocal religious conservatives who speak out against homosexuality. (Phil Robertson anyone?) Liberal groups may even go as far as monitoring political speech on the internet for the purpose of reporting it to the employers of conservative activists. The day employers start firing folks for rank and file conservative or republican belief then half the country will look and go "what happened??" By then it will be too late, your freedom taken from you and no possibility to peaceably change the situation. The socially liberal millennial generation seems to completely support political correctness and its enforcement through employers. This will backfire, and even those who support it today may see one day that it is their own freedom they gave up. Again I find all of this frightening that people no longer recognize the danger here, or see the slippery slope toward the world of Orwells Big Brother.
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:37 PM
 
17,002 posts, read 20,679,321 times
Reputation: 33988
Quote:
Originally Posted by todd00 View Post
She has a right to her opinion who said she didn't? But I would suggest she make certain it is in fact illegal to fly the Mexican flag as these people were doing and then take proper steps through city/county channels. She said, "Taking a position on an issue does not make me evil, racist or unethical if I disagree with your position". Everyone has an opinion but she is not a member of code enforcement or the police department and had no reason to engage this woman in conversation about this topic. And she was trespassing on their property, lucky she didn't get herself shot or assaulted. And this fool is a candidate for city council. How anyone could side with her on this is beyond me.

This woman is a totally idiot. Funny that she then turns it around and she becomes the victim when she is the one that started the whole thing. She complains, "My life is being threatened and the business I built for 30 years has suffered over a flag video". Capps wrote in a Facebook post. “My son is being bullied at school now and for that I am devastated". Hey moron, ya might have thought of that before you put the video on youtube. You have a kid in school in the town, you work in the area in a sales capacity. It's not exactly good PR for the real estate firm, so certainly that sacked her. How she had a career for 30 years is another mystery.

I could care less if they fly the flag. New Yorkers come from many countries, they have their cultural parades and fly flags at times throughout the year. Is this Mexican flag flying really the biggest problem that Ontario, California has?? I certainly doubt it.

Agree, she is both an idiot and one of these attention whores who post all their business online.

She is Southern CA for God's sake, she acts like she came upon something she has never seen before.

I would like to see her try that in Georgia with a Confederate flag and walking up on private property like that, instead of coming across a quiet Latino woman she would have been greeted with a good ole boy and a shotgun....LOL.

She is both beyond stupid and downright arrogant.
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:38 PM
 
1,266 posts, read 2,478,961 times
Reputation: 1235
What a dummy. She wants the flag down because sge feels offended. She has to get off her car, enter private property and disrespect the owner of the property like that?

Freedom of speech blah blag blah

What about property rights, and all around having common sense?

Most older immigrants didnt learned english fluently. I bet hers didnt. Nothing wrong with talking a different language anyway.

What an idiot
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:48 PM
 
17,002 posts, read 20,679,321 times
Reputation: 33988
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
First I don't really support that woman at all. She is a loon and she harassed that poor woman for nothing. Had she been charged with trespassing and harassement (which maybe should have happened) I think then her employer had every right to fire her for breaking the law. However what she was fired for was her very vocal political activism and that to me is why I have a problem with it. I have made my case and will not repeat myself, but I will say I find your views extremely frightening. Worse yet I know a lot of the millennial generation agrees with you, so our freedoms days are numbered. I have no idea what your politics are and don't care. What I care about is the fact that social activists have found a way to silence me using my ability to keep a job. They have gone around the spirit of the constitution and found a loop. Its totally legal for these employers to do this, and liberal activists groups are having great success manipulating big corporations into enforcing political correctness. The sheeple of this country don't see what is going on here. First it will only be blatant racists like the lady in the video. It is easy to have no sympathy for her, so who wants to stand up for her rights. Then it will be very vocal religious conservatives who speak out against homosexuality. (Phil Robertson anyone?) Liberal groups may even go as far as monitoring political speech on the internet for the purpose of reporting it to the employers of conservative activists. The day employers start firing folks for rank and file conservative or republican belief then half the country will look and go "what happened??" By then it will be too late, your freedom taken from you and no possibility to peaceably change the situation. The socially liberal millennial generation seems to completely support political correctness and its enforcement through employers. This will backfire, and even those who support it today may see one day that it is their own freedom they gave up. Again I find all of this frightening that people no longer recognize the danger here, or see the slippery slope toward the world of Orwells Big Brother.

You speak of George Orwell and Big Brother, how ironic that you missed the point that this woman not only did this, but she had to film it.

She not only comes onto private property, she does so filming it. She couldn't just say her peace without the benefit of a camera.....how is that for Orwellian.

We have all spoken up when we think something is wrong(I don't agree with her at all) but we can do it without filming it, posting it on FB, etc.

It's one thing if you say something, you can always turn around and deny it. But these morons today like this woman have to post everything online.

Look at these servers who nowadays go online when they get a bad tip, you know what I waited tables through college in the 80s, yes every once in awhile you get stiffed. You forget about it and move on, now we have servers who post the name of customer and their credit card number and badmouth them.

You know what? Just like this woman there are consequences for having to go "viral" with things that you should keep to yourself. If she just stopped her car and did this, and didn't tell more than maybe a friend or family member, who would know. Which makes me question how sincere she really even is.

If she had done this without filming it, we wouldn't even be having this debate.

I haven't read 1984 in many years, but I do remember there were lots of cameras around.

You missed that part.
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:57 PM
 
3,723 posts, read 4,591,036 times
Reputation: 4746
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
First I don't really support that woman at all. She is a loon and she harassed that poor woman for nothing. Had she been charged with trespassing and harassement (which maybe should have happened) I think then her employer had every right to fire her for breaking the law. However what she was fired for was her very vocal political activism and that to me is why I have a problem with it. I have made my case and will not repeat myself, but I will say I find your views extremely frightening. Worse yet I know a lot of the millennial generation agrees with you, so our freedoms days are numbered. I have no idea what your politics are and don't care. What I care about is the fact that social activists have found a way to silence me using my ability to keep a job. They have gone around the spirit of the constitution and found a loop. Its totally legal for these employers to do this, and liberal activists groups are having great success manipulating big corporations into enforcing political correctness. The sheeple of this country don't see what is going on here. First it will only be blatant racists like the lady in the video. It is easy to have no sympathy for her, so who wants to stand up for her rights. Then it will be very vocal religious conservatives who speak out against homosexuality. (Phil Robertson anyone?) Liberal groups may even go as far as monitoring political speech on the internet for the purpose of reporting it to the employers of conservative activists. The day employers start firing folks for rank and file conservative or republican belief then half the country will look and go "what happened??" By then it will be too late, your freedom taken from you and no possibility to peaceably change the situation. The socially liberal millennial generation seems to completely support political correctness and its enforcement through employers. This will backfire, and even those who support it today may see one day that it is their own freedom they gave up. Again I find all of this frightening that people no longer recognize the danger here, or see the slippery slope toward the world of Orwells Big Brother.
Harassing someone is not political activism.
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,523 posts, read 7,463,600 times
Reputation: 10925
Quote:
Originally Posted by seain dublin View Post
You speak of George Orwell and Big Brother, how ironic that you missed the point that this woman not only did this, but she had to film it.

She not only comes onto private property, she does so filming it. She couldn't just say her peace without the benefit of a camera.....how is that for Orwellian.

We have all spoken up when we think something is wrong(I don't agree with her at all) but we can do it without filming it, posting it on FB, etc.

It's one thing if you say something, you can always turn around and deny it. But these morons today like this woman have to post everything online.

Look at these servers who nowadays go online when they get a bad tip, you know what I waited tables through college in the 80s, yes every once in awhile you get stiffed. You forget about it and move on, now we have servers who post the name of customer and their credit card number and badmouth them.

You know what? Just like this woman there are consequences for having to go "viral" with things that you should keep to yourself. If she just stopped her car and did this, and didn't tell more than maybe a friend or family member, who would know. Which makes me question how sincere she really even is.

If she had done this without filming it, we wouldn't even be having this debate.

I haven't read 1984 in many years, but I do remember there were lots of cameras around.

You missed that part.
If you read my post I said she probably should have been charged for entering private property and harassing the woman. She violated that ladies rights, but what I have a beef with is being fired for having spoke out on her beliefs. If the company had fired her for being charged with trespassing on the ladies private property I would support that. It is the fact that we are now becoming a nation where it is ok to fire people for being vocal about politics that bothers me so much. I have no sympathy for that woman as a person, she is a mean spirited person. It is our freedom to speak that I am worried about. If your employer controls your "free speech" then it is not free at all. That is what I find Orwellian here.
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Old 09-29-2014, 12:11 AM
 
3,723 posts, read 4,591,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
If you read my post I said she probably should have been charged for entering private property and harassing the woman. She violated that ladies rights, but what I have a beef with is being fired for having spoke out on her beliefs. If the company had fired her for being charged with trespassing on the ladies private property I would support that. It is the fact that we are now becoming a nation where it is ok to fire people for being vocal about politics that bothers me so much. I have no sympathy for that woman as a person, she is a mean spirited person. It is our freedom to speak that I am worried about. If your employer controls your "free speech" then it is not free at all. That is what I find Orwellian here.
She is a public face for this company. A racist, trespassing, harassing public face. The man who kicked his dog was asked to resign when the video of it went viral. No reputable organization has to be associated with someone who does this garbage. I wonder how many of the people who support this woman have called for other people to lose their job for something that they did outside of work, be they public officials or celebrities. Should a man who advocates having sex with young boys be allowed to work in a respected pediatrician's office because he has a right to express his opinions? Why not if you want to make this right to say whatever you want with no consequences a law? Shouldn't effect his job as long as he doesn't touch his patients. Of course you'd probably stop bringing your kids to that practice along with most parents with any sense and they'd quickly go out of business. All because one man has a right to his political speech and apparently a right to a job no matter what he says publicly.
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Old 09-29-2014, 12:34 AM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,523 posts, read 7,463,600 times
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Originally Posted by trishguard View Post
She is a public face for this company. A racist, trespassing, harassing public face. The man who kicked his dog was asked to resign when the video of it went viral. No reputable organization has to be associated with someone who does this garbage. I wonder how many of the people who support this woman have called for other people to lose their job for something that they did outside of work, be they public officials or celebrities. Should a man who advocates having sex with young boys be allowed to work in a respected pediatrician's office because he has a right to express his opinions? Why not if you want to make this right to say whatever you want with no consequences a law? Shouldn't effect his job as long as he doesn't touch his patients. Of course you'd probably stop bringing your kids to that practice along with most parents with any sense and they'd quickly go out of business. All because one man has a right to his political speech and apparently a right to a job no matter what he says publicly.

Your example is not valid because a pediatrician advocating sex with young boys is calling for the law to be broken, and someone elses rights to be violated. Free speech has never protected those who are using it to threaten violence or criminal activity. This would violate the rights of others. Its fair to say that a pedophile should not be a pediatrician. This case of the woman fired for her rant against Mexicans would be much simpler if she had been charged for the crime that it appears she committed. (trespassing and harassment) However she was not, so the companies only grounds for doing this was they did not like what she said. I get your point about people associating her with the company, but as long as she did not mention the company, involve the company or do it on company time it is not the companies business what she says. Let me ask you this, would you accept being fired for posting your political beliefs online? Maybe you don't talk politics online, but I bet you have said something somewhere that would offend someone. If you have posted something that could offend anyone, do you accept losing your job for having said it??? Is this the kind of nation we want to live in?
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Old 09-29-2014, 01:37 AM
 
3,723 posts, read 4,591,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
Your example is not valid because a pediatrician advocating sex with young boys is calling for the law to be broken, and someone elses rights to be violated. Free speech has never protected those who are using it to threaten violence or criminal activity. This would violate the rights of others. Its fair to say that a pedophile should not be a pediatrician. This case of the woman fired for her rant against Mexicans would be much simpler if she had been charged for the crime that it appears she committed. (trespassing and harassment) However she was not, so the companies only grounds for doing this was they did not like what she said. I get your point about people associating her with the company, but as long as she did not mention the company, involve the company or do it on company time it is not the companies business what she says. Let me ask you this, would you accept being fired for posting your political beliefs online? Maybe you don't talk politics online, but I bet you have said something somewhere that would offend someone. If you have posted something that could offend anyone, do you accept losing your job for having said it??? Is this the kind of nation we want to live in?
They are calling for laws to be changed, not broken. These people are real. I remember they were in the news many years ago advocating that their desired activity be decriminalized. So it's exactly the same free speech.
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