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I could write a book about problems in the Muslim world, but at the end of the day, straight traditional people in these countries are much happier with their marriages.
In the United States, few marriages go well. Maybe this is why Americans don't care if sex perverts with open relationships and hundreds of lifetime partners, very often through orgies and pedophilia, spread HIV without consequence and marry solely for legal benefits.
Riiiggght. Yes, there are pockets of such people today, many of them are blacks or Latinos. But they are a small minority of our country's population that they are on the fringe. Compare that to all predominately Muslim nations' treatment of women and homosexuals by law. Some sentence to prison for life while others are executed. Women have very little legal rights in Muslim nations and have been executed for being raped.
Exactly right.
By the way, Turkey ranked 68th on the HDR GII (generder inequality index). The US came in 47th.
Regarding your previous comment about Muslim nations going backwards, you're absolutely correct. If you look at what happened in Iran or is now currently happening in Turkey, it's very disturbing. But then that's not really just a Muslim thing either. Congo or Central African Republic are both very Christian and about as bad as they get. Fundamentalism is definitely much stronger today with Muslims than Christians, thankfully, but it's not like it's something that's unique to them.
Christianity and Judaism are progressing nicely. Islam is the religion/culture taking huge strides back several centuries.
The two aforementioned 'progressing' is really a euphemism for becoming more secularized ... less, to a degree 'religious'. Islam is still stuck in the past - and more 'religious'. As a consequence it's more reactionary, barbaric, primitive etc. Remove religion - period - from the equation, and there's a chance of real progress. (Respect one faith - you've got to respect them all).
By the way, Turkey ranked 68th on the HDR GII (generder inequality index). The US came in 47th.
Regarding your previous comment about Muslim nations going backwards, you're absolutely correct. If you look at what happened in Iran or is now currently happening in Turkey, it's very disturbing. But then that's not really just a Muslim thing either. Congo or Central African Republic are both very Christian and about as bad as they get. Fundamentalism is definitely much stronger today with Muslims than Christians, thankfully, but it's not like it's something that's unique to them.
Turkey has had public gay pride parades for years and these events are undisturbed. There have long been famous gays and trannies in Turkish pop culture. Greece and Israel are more accepting, but any time gays in nearby Eastern European countries (Serbia, Bulgaria, etc.) try to set up some pro-gay event, it's met with a much larger opposition of ultranationalists and usually ends in violence. I doubt Ukrainian gays have ever dared to hold such events. A Pew survey from years ago reported even Lebanese people were more likely than Ukrainians to agree that gays should be tolerated.
This is in Turkish, but if you're able to use captions to translate (if not, you can probably tell by the vocal tones and body language), you'll see that there are many people in Turkish cities who support gay marriage. This doesn't reflect the general view, but I think it was a slight majority who said yes in the video, and this included a few women with their heads covered.
Also, religious fundamentalism is declining in Turkey. It's easy to believe otherwise with the conservative and Islamist-rooted ruling party's strength, along with the more Arab-friendly foreign policy it's taken, sometimes with and sometimes without public support, but people are much less likely today to believe Turkey should be ruled by Sharia law than they were 15 years ago (21% in 1999 versus 7%-12% today), and even the fundamentalists tend to reject many hardline elements of Sharia.
Yes, the more religion of any kind is kept in check, respected but held privately by individuals, instead of supported and enforced by the state, the better.
Islam has a long way to go in this regard because, at least party, the whole religion is actually a way of life through its five pillars and the Sharia laws. So, it's difficult to separate the religious elements from the secular, especially in the context of these muslim countries, which are almost all of the Third World variety with simple minds. Unsophisticated people see the world in clear distinctions, and they cannot accept the grey area of differences. To them, being different equals sin equals death. Islam is stuck in a 15th century mindset trying to function in the 21 st century. That to me means lots of wars.
By extension, any muslim state with a relatively unsophisticated population (college grads rate, standard of living, modernization levels), if given democratic rights to direct national policies, will likely be swayed by their religious views, and lead the country to extremism. Hence, to prevent this, muslim nations with relatively undeveloped economies must not be democratic, but ruled with an iron fist by leaders who are committed to economic development and raising social development. Once a certain level is reached and the population is sufficiently educated in the modern studies of science and philosophies, then democratization can occur in stages. Looking at places like Egypt and right off, you will noticed that we forced democratization too soon by knocking out its dictators, and now the whole country is in a tailspin decline. What we should have done was to help its military rulers to liberalize and develop their economy instead of this democratic bs which is bringing the country to extremism.
Truer words were never spoken. People who b**** about this terrible country we live in have NO idea how good we have it. There are things we do every day and take for granted that would get you imprisoned or killed in other countries. We are VERY SPOILED and VERY FORTUNATE here in the good old USA.
Don
I'm grateful for our liberties, but I'm also grateful for the people who speak up when we are doing something wrong. Political speech like that, is how we got to be a great nation, and how we will continue to evolve.
It takes people saying " Hey. This is BS!" to keep us moving forward.
Turkey has had public gay pride parades for years and these events are undisturbed. There have long been famous gays and trannies in Turkish pop culture. Greece and Israel are more accepting, but any time gays in nearby Eastern European countries (Serbia, Bulgaria, etc.) try to set up some pro-gay event, it's met with a much larger opposition of ultranationalists and usually ends in violence. I doubt Ukrainian gays have ever dared to hold such events. A Pew survey from years ago reported even Lebanese people were more likely than Ukrainians to agree that gays should be tolerated.
This is in Turkish, but if you're able to use captions to translate (if not, you can probably tell by the vocal tones and body language), you'll see that there are many people in Turkish cities who support gay marriage. This doesn't reflect the general view, but I think it was a slight majority who said yes in the video, and this included a few women with their heads covered.
Also, religious fundamentalism is declining in Turkey. It's easy to believe otherwise with the conservative and Islamist-rooted ruling party's strength, along with the more Arab-friendly foreign policy it's taken, sometimes with and sometimes without public support, but people are much less likely today to believe Turkey should be ruled by Sharia law than they were 15 years ago (21% in 1999 versus 7%-12% today), and even the fundamentalists tend to reject many hardline elements of Sharia.
In the past couple years, there's been an uptick of fundamentalist-type violence against women. A lot of it's racial with the attacks focusing on Amermenians. There's also been a systematic attack (not physical) on female journalists in Turkey.
But yes, Turkey is no where near the backwater that people might assume it is. Nor was Iran, at least prior to the Islamic Revolution. Turkey is by no means immune to the same pressures that Egypt is facing. It's not Egypt or Iran, but then Iran wasn't Iran either before the Islamic Revolution. Iran used to be the model beacon of modernity in the Islamic world much the way Turkey is now. It's a tenuous balance there. And even here, just look at things like McCarthyism and the Red Scare. McCarthy was as much on the hunt for sexual perverts and non-Christians as he was on the hunt for Reds. Had that political direction towards oppression continued for 10 or 20 years, where exactly would we have ended up?
There's also Lebanon, which is socially far more conservative than Turkey is. They're, again, many years behind us in LGBT acceptance. Laws persecuting homsexuals were just overturned this year, and their equivalent of the DSM just recently changed such that homosexuality is no longer considered a mental disorder. Again, decades behind where we are today but no different. It's not just crazy fundamentalist Sharia law. Lebanon has partial Sharia law, which is why it's so backwards in regards to personal freedom. But then so does Israel The UAE has full Sharia law apply to both personal as well as criminal conduct. The United States doesn't have that. Separation of religion is a great start, but religious morality can pervade a secular state as well.
OK, we get it, you hate USA and Christianity. Why do liberals feel the need to defend Muslims with attacks against USA and Christianity?
LOL!
You conservatives were the ones shouting about tyranny and comparing Obama to Hitler when the government decided to force people to switch from incandescent to fluorescent light bulbs.
You're the targets of many of the posts in this thread - those who are spoiled, those who hate our government, those who whine about tyranny without having the slightest inkling of what true tyranny actually is. I believe it was the conservatives who made it known in no uncertain terms that they would rather see America collapse in flames than to see Obama succeed - which makes me wonder who REALLY hates America around here.
So please - don't claim to "get it" when you quite obviously do not. No one is defending Muslims here. In fact, your post has nothing to do with the defense of Muslims. Rather, it's just a deflection hoping we won't notice how it has always been the conservative Christians who championed and supported those sodomy laws in the first place - and some conservative politicians have even suggested bringing them BACK. It was the Christian conservatives who fought tooth and nail to violate the Constitution by banning gay marriage, pushing your conservative religious views onto the whole of society whether we were all Christian or not.
The Christian conservatives in this nation are just a mirror image of Islamic fundamentalism - and I bet that drives you CRAZY, doesn't it, knowing Christian conservatism has more in common with intolerant Muslim regimes than they have differences. Oh how painful it must be to gaze into that mirror only to see a conservative Muslim imam staring back at you, to know without any ambiguity that you have literally become your own worst enemy. To people like myself, trading one theocratic fascist regime for another makes no difference - I'd rather not have either.
Last edited by Shirina; 11-03-2014 at 10:22 AM..
Reason: My first draft was arrested by conservatives for being at a gay post rally. It even had a purple font.
In the past couple years, there's been an uptick of fundamentalist-type violence against women. A lot of it's racial with the attacks focusing on Amermenians. There's also been a systematic attack (not physical) on female journalists in Turkey.
There isn't widespread enmity toward Armenians in Istanbul, where pretty much the entire Armenian community in Turkey lives. Surveys show many in Armenia want to move to Turkey, and some have moved illegally and have no desire to leave. Violent nationalism has always been worse among Armenians than among Turks. If an Armenian is attacked in Turkey, the attacker will be arrested immediately and there will probably be thousands of protestors. Armenia, meanwhile, is a country where ASALA terrorists who killed diplomats and other civilians are harbored and have statues, monuments, and mausoleums erected in their honor. Talk about hate-mongers.
Quote:
But yes, Turkey is no where near the backwater that people might assume it is. Nor was Iran, at least prior to the Islamic Revolution. Turkey is by no means immune to the same pressures that Egypt is facing. It's not Egypt or Iran, but then Iran wasn't Iran either before the Islamic Revolution. Iran used to be the model beacon of modernity in the Islamic world much the way Turkey is now.
This still implies Turkey is similar to Iran pre-revolution. To this day, most Iranians believe Sharia must be at least one source of legislation, and most Egyptians believe Sharia must be the only source, while Turks mostly favor a secular democracy, though the people are more divided. A more conservative government with laws rooted in Islam is more realistic, but even if Turkey were to have a minority-supported Islamic state, it would have to be a much more moderate one.
Islamists gained power in Iran and Egypt out of public frustration with their corrupt Western puppet leaders, though Egyptians mostly do want an Islamic state. Iran's present Islamic government will be overthrown, but as Iranian experts say, the best way to interfere with a revolution in Iran is by attacking the country. Iranians are nationalistic and want to avoid destabilizing the country while under threat of attack.
Yes, the more religion of any kind is kept in check, respected but held privately by individuals, instead of supported and enforced by the state, the better.
Islam has a long way to go in this regard because, at least party, the whole religion is actually a way of life through its five pillars and the Sharia laws. So, it's difficult to separate the religious elements from the secular, especially in the context of these muslim countries, which are almost all of the Third World variety with simple minds. Unsophisticated people see the world in clear distinctions, and they cannot accept the grey area of differences. To them, being different equals sin equals death. Islam is stuck in a 15th century mindset trying to function in the 21 st century. That to me means lots of wars.
By extension, any muslim state with a relatively unsophisticated population (college grads rate, standard of living, modernization levels), if given democratic rights to direct national policies, will likely be swayed by their religious views, and lead the country to extremism. Hence, to prevent this, muslim nations with relatively undeveloped economies must not be democratic, but ruled with an iron fist by leaders who are committed to economic development and raising social development. Once a certain level is reached and the population is sufficiently educated in the modern studies of science and philosophies, then democratization can occur in stages. Looking at places like Egypt and right off, you will noticed that we forced democratization too soon by knocking out its dictators, and now the whole country is in a tailspin decline. What we should have done was to help its military rulers to liberalize and develop their economy instead of this democratic bs which is bringing the country to extremism.
Much truth here. Case in point, the removal of Saddam Hussein. As much of a tyrant as he was, the position of women was stronger - and there were more 'mixed' marriages - i.e. between Sunni and Shia. After Saddam's fall the old schisms opened, and often even husbands and wives fell out based on the old tribalisms.
The US led invasion of Iraq has been nothing but a gift to radical Islam. Congratulations Bush and Blair.
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