U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Current Events
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 12-13-2014, 02:31 PM
 
16,095 posts, read 17,895,645 times
Reputation: 15891

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
How do you know this?

Almost twenty years ago I was called down to the police station because my very white son was carrying his paintball gun in a public place. The police took this very seriously. It ticked me off but once I knew the attitude of the police I made sure that he only had access to his paintball gun when he was going to the paintball field.

Many boys think it makes them look grown up to carry a weapon when they are young. I didn't know he had taken it out and at that time and place I hadn't given it much thought. But living in today's jumpy society I would be very careful indeed.

This is just a total tragedy and should never have happened. But it didn't happen because of skin color. It happened because a young man and two police officers all used poor judgment.

Please, please don't say you think police are after public gun carriers because of the color of their skin. They are after them because of what might happen.
Then why is it that they shoot and kill black males without guns, but not white males with guns at such a high rate.

Did you see the two videos I posted where the cops defused the situation without killing the white men despite the fact that they had real guns and were pointing them at the police and at other people? Sheesh, what has to happen for you people to admit that the system *is* racist even if a particular cop is not.

Being a cop showed me just how racist and violent the police are. There

Quote:
As a cop, it shouldn’t surprise you that people will curse at you, or be disappointed by your arrival. That’s part of the job. But too many times, officers saw young black and brown men as targets. They would respond with force to even minor offenses. And because cops are rarely held accountable for their actions, they didn’t think too hard about the consequences.”
Quote:
The problem is that cops aren’t held accountable for their actions, and they know it. These officers violate rights with impunity. They know there’s a different criminal justice system for civilians and police.

Even when officers get caught, they know they’ll be investigated by their friends, and put on paid leave. My colleagues would laughingly refer to this as a free vacation. It isn’t a punishment. And excessive force is almost always deemed acceptable in our courts and among our grand juries. Prosecutors are tight with law enforcement, and share the same values and ideas.

 
Old 12-13-2014, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Secure, Undisclosed
1,984 posts, read 1,293,035 times
Reputation: 3702
Someone on screen #1 asked if anyone here had been in a lethal situation. I have. And I taught it. And I worked for a medical examiner during my very long career. Here are my thoughts:

Can you yell "Hands up" two or three times in three seconds? You bet. While you are drawing your weapon. While you are shooting your weapon. While teaching 'shoot/don't shoot' scenarios that are recorded, we measured shouts, commands and weapons usage in tenths and hundreds of seconds. You couldn't even work for us if you couldn't draw and fire two center mass rounds in 1.8 seconds from standing perfectly still. Yelling, drawing and firing one round in two seconds is a snap.

Homicide? There are only five manners of death. Homicide (someone else did it), suicide (you did it to yourself), natural (mother nature did it) accidental (No one did it on purpose, it just happened) and undetermined (we can't figure it out). Only one applies here, but that is NOT a legal finding that it was wrongful. For example, anyone here know what a 'judicial homicide' is? It's a government sanctioned execution, such as what we did to John Wayne Gacy. As long as the officer meant to fire and the death resulted, the cause of death gunshot wound and manner of death is homicide. Everything beyond that is up to the courts.

Lots of talk about the driver of the squad car. I haven't interviewed him and no one else here has, either. But I bet I know what happened - they were arriving 'in the area' (what you would transmit on your radio when you were arriving at the scene but still looking for the reported offender) with both sets of eyes craning around looking for whatever they were dispatched to handle. Suddenly they find they are ten feet away from a male who fit whatever description they were given. Car jerks to a stop and the passenger officer bails out only to find himself face to face with a male (he called him 'about 20 [years old]') who has a very real looking gun in his hand or his waistband. That kid makes even a flinch toward the gun and every police firearms instructor currently teaching would advise the officer to fire immediately. (I don't agree with it, but that is the current training.) So until we find out what the driver of the squad car knew and when he knew it, we should NOT assume they saw the suspect from 100 yards out and closed on him to within ten feet. That doesn't make sense and none of us would ever do that. But suddenly finding yourself right on top of the guy you're looking for? It's happened to me a zillion times.

I've heard through my grapevine that this case might have some maturity/lack-of-experience issues involved, but I don't know that firsthand. I do know, from investigating hundreds of death scenes, that this could very well be a case of mistaken identity (the cop thought the kid was an adult or a gang-banger); a case of strict adherence to range training without an independent assessment of the actual threat (reflexively acting as trained without thinking first); or a case where the kid pulled, pointed or otherwise brandished a very real looking gun and the cop thought he was about to buy it. For the record - I don't know. I'll leave it to the investigation.

But I do agree with those who recognize this as a very, very unfortunate tragedy.
 
Old 12-13-2014, 03:36 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
13,343 posts, read 17,408,219 times
Reputation: 19654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post

Lots of talk about the driver of the squad car. I haven't interviewed him and no one else here has, either. But I bet I know what happened - they were arriving 'in the area' (what you would transmit on your radio when you were arriving at the scene but still looking for the reported offender) with both sets of eyes craning around looking for whatever they were dispatched to handle. Suddenly they find they are ten feet away from a male who fit whatever description they were given. Car jerks to a stop and the passenger officer bails out only to find himself face to face with a male (he called him 'about 20 [years old]') who has a very real looking gun in his hand or his waistband. That kid makes even a flinch toward the gun and every police firearms instructor currently teaching would advise the officer to fire immediately. (I don't agree with it, but that is the current training.) So until we find out what the driver of the squad car knew and when he knew it, we should NOT assume they saw the suspect from 100 yards out and closed on him to within ten feet. That doesn't make sense and none of us would ever do that. But suddenly finding yourself right on top of the guy you're looking for? It's happened to me a zillion times.
I can buy this scenario if the squad car had pulled to a stop on the street.
In the video, the squad car pulled offroad and onto the flower bed/grass that surrounded the gazebo where the boy was at. Were they driving wantonly on the grass in the park when there's a road right in front of the gazebo?



This is the route (the sidewalk) the squad car took ... you can see where it ended up next to the gazebo:

 
Old 12-13-2014, 05:24 PM
 
Location: 23.7 million to 162 million miles North of Venus
5,523 posts, read 5,127,415 times
Reputation: 4324
Loehmann worked for the Independence, Ohio PD from July, 2012 to December, 2012. His conduct led his superiors to believe that he was not fit to be a police officer and they decided to release him. They then met with Loehmann and told him that they were releasing him, and Loehmann decided to resign.
He was hired by the Cleveland PD in March, 2013.

Loehmann's file from the Independence PD (the first part of the file contains the regular new hire info. The comments regarding Loehmann's behavior begins on Page 56)...
Quote:
Recommendation Due to this dangerous loss of composure during live range training and his inability to manage this personal stress, I do not believe Ptl. Loehmann shows the maturity needed to work in our employment. Unfortunately in law enforcement there are times when instructions need be followed to the letter, and I am under the impression Ptl. Loehmann, under certain circumstances, will not react in the way instructed. Ptl. Loehmann's lack ofcommitment for his future here at Independence is disconcerting. Although saying he is happy to be here, he seems to be considering other options. For these reasons, I am recommending he be released from the employment of the City of Independence. I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies.
Independence Timothy Loehmann Response to Records Request

His file from the Cleveland PD had been requested almost two weeks ago and haven't been released yet.
 
Old 12-13-2014, 05:32 PM
 
6,312 posts, read 3,576,034 times
Reputation: 22078
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Then why is it that they shoot and kill black males without guns, but not white males with guns at such a high rate.

Did you see the two videos I posted where the cops defused the situation without killing the white men despite the fact that they had real guns and were pointing them at the police and at other people? Sheesh, what has to happen for you people to admit that the system *is* racist even if a particular cop is not.

Being a cop showed me just how racist and violent the police are. There
You said that when white kids are playing with guns the police are never called. That statement was what I responded to. Unless you have nationwide figures on that I don't think you can make that statement.

I don't know what the accurate figures are regarding police shooting black males without guns but not white males with guns. Do you? If you can give statistics from a reputable source I'll take a look at them.
 
Old 12-13-2014, 06:16 PM
 
5,608 posts, read 3,665,509 times
Reputation: 5427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
You said that when white kids are playing with guns the police are never called. That statement was what I responded to. Unless you have nationwide figures on that I don't think you can make that statement.
Well I can tell you that's a lie.

I've had white friends as kids confronted by the police with fake guns out in public.

They were tackled though, not murdered.
 
Old 12-13-2014, 10:32 PM
 
6,312 posts, read 3,576,034 times
Reputation: 22078
My point is that anecdotes don't equal data. Unless we have actual government data that we can rely upon we are all left with is our own personal biased opinions based upon limited information.

It appears no one has that data to back up their opinions right now.
 
Old 12-14-2014, 06:38 AM
 
3,764 posts, read 3,503,255 times
Reputation: 8933
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
They should never have pulled up so close. Even the police procedure experts say they messed up.

Police procedure experts question tactics of officers involved in Tamir Rice shooting | cleveland.com



The same thing happened in the Kajieme Powell case. The officers pulled up close and shot very quickly.

But in the case of Joseph Houseman who actually waved a gun around, the police stopped a distance away and talked to the man instead of shooting. He even got his gun back.

Seriously, the cop who killed Tamir needs to be prosecuted and his partner (who was the driver) should also be disciplined. Loehmann was apparently a bad officer to begin with.

Officer Who Shot Tamir Rice Is Reportedly “Unstable” (DETAILS) | Global Grind
This is disturbing. It sounds like this guy should never have been hired in the first place. "Distracted and weepy"? Fired from his previous job?
 
Old 12-14-2014, 07:53 AM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
30,029 posts, read 16,607,518 times
Reputation: 22595
Quote:
Originally Posted by berdee View Post
Loehmann worked for the Independence, Ohio PD from July, 2012 to December, 2012. His conduct led his superiors to believe that he was not fit to be a police officer and they decided to release him. They then met with Loehmann and told him that they were releasing him, and Loehmann decided to resign.
He was hired by the Cleveland PD in March, 2013.

Loehmann's file from the Independence PD (the first part of the file contains the regular new hire info. The comments regarding Loehmann's behavior begins on Page 56)...
Independence Timothy Loehmann Response to Records Request

His file from the Cleveland PD had been requested almost two weeks ago and haven't been released yet.
Wow.
 
Old 12-14-2014, 08:01 AM
 
5,608 posts, read 3,665,509 times
Reputation: 5427
^^

I hadn't read that but I did notice an odd hole in his employment. That information should bolster the case against the officer.

Though that depebds how in bed the DA is with the police department. Gotta buy those votes.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Current Events
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top