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Old 12-31-2014, 06:58 AM
 
4,250 posts, read 3,319,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof View Post
We already did - Abraham Lincoln. The Civil War cost 620,000 lives ....... and yet the US stayed together (arguably for the better, to a large extent) and Lincoln is considered to be among the greatest of our Presidents.

Assad is evil, but at least he has always been mainly concerned with his own country. That's not the case if Muslim extremists take over .... they would then turn their attention to helping a worldwide caliphate develop.

There are only two possibilities: a secular strongman, or a Muslim theocracy. There's no chance of a lasting democracy, because the poorly educated masses would simply vote in a theocracy.

It's kind of like old-style cancer treatments: they had to get rid of the cancer because it would inevitably kill the patient - but the treatment made the patient desperately ill and could itself kill him. But we can't be the surgeons again, except for limited help.
If I could rep you 10 times, I would.

The dreamy eyed do-gooders need to learn to work with imperfect situations and deal with the secular dictators who are much more likely to be concerned with secular issues...like jobs, development and security. Get your dreamy eyeglasses on, start some pointless color revolution/flower rebellion, and then watch as a bunch of theocratic loonies take over the country. In the end, the people of the country pay dearly for the do-gooders' "hard work"!!!
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Old 12-31-2014, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Blue Ridge
20,899 posts, read 22,704,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iHez View Post
...

You know what the Arab league is, It's a group of Mafia and dictators and they follow the US government orders. That's why revolutions happened, yet failed because of the Arab dictators league supporting each other.

....
Do you or have you ever lived in the region (as an adult) or do you just say you are Yemeni because you are descended from one?
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:01 AM
 
7,019 posts, read 6,646,258 times
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You take away the Islamic hysteria. You're left with a situation not unlike Operation Cyclone in Afghanistan or the Nicaraguan Contras. The US and its partners are backing the various rebel factions against Assad. When CIA analysts state that there are 5,000 agents and special forces already operating inside Syria and these small militant rebel groups are still wreaking havoc against the Syrian government and the civilian population, you really need to examine whether you're really informed enough about the situation if you still think the US is not in it to get rid of Assad.
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Old 01-02-2015, 02:56 PM
 
11,586 posts, read 17,518,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antequera View Post
I think we can all agree that both Libya and Iraq have been disasters ever since their respective leaders were ousted with Western support.

1) Libya is in a state of civil war, no stable government, Islamic State controlling part of the country, and other jihadist groups holding sanctuaries in parts of the country. Libya has become another Somalia, but even more dangerous. Oil money can now flow into the hands of such Islamists and potential terrorists.

2) Iraq has been suffering from sectarian strife and its army quickly fell apart as Islamic State fighters pounced on the vulnerability of the country.

Now, if Assad is to fall, the same thing would happen to Syria. The "Syrian Moderates" or FSA are ridiculously weak and would be overrun by the Islamic State and other Islamic Groups in a day. Best case scenario the FSA would control a few government buildings in Damascus and that's it. Syria would become another Libya or Somalia, hence giving more territory and safe havens to terrorists like that of the Islamic State. This would be very dangerous for the Western World.

The fact that Assad is Alawite (technically not Shia or Sunni), has a secular agenda, and is a strongman, is what Syria needs to stay together and not descend into another Libya. It is laughable that some people in the West thinks that FSA, sitting in Istanbul, would be capable of bringing stability to Syria.

What all civilized countries and people in the West need to do is support Assad - he is the only way that Syria will not become another jihadist hub. Assad will continue a secular society with respect towards all minorities, especially Christians and other Alawites.
Assad isn't the solution, he is the cause....the problem is that you are thinking tactically. You need to think strategically. This isn't a place for amateur's. Secularism or extreme Islam isn't the problem or the solution, it's all about power and tribal influences, it doesn't matter if it's ISIS or HAMAS or the TALIBAN, religion, like nationalism, is just a tool for power. PLO (pretty much a secular organization) was blowing up Israeli's and others years before radical islam became a watchword. Really, forget all these media terms - this is just a huge proxy war between Shiite's and Sunni's. Tribal wars.

Tactically, his replacement will be a problem as hardliner extreemest take over. But that's not the true strategic problem. The problem is that he supports the 800 pound gorillas in the room - Iran, his support for Hamas, nuclear weapon development, Israel proxy wars, China and Russia support.... It's much more complex. Who will take his place? Is Somalia or Libya really a strategic threat? They are a regional threat that can be managed. Assad on the other hand has allies, has power, has influence with our enemies. Assad has to go if possible, just like Saddam before him and Kaddafi (at least in his crazier days). Not to say we should start a war to remove him, that is politically infeasible, but US should support his removal from power.

Now, his replacement won't be better, this is truly a no-win situation. But you deal with the known evil. Basically, he is a state sponsored terrorist group, his fight with another terrorist group doesn't diminish his evil. They are simply two sides of the same coin, with one - Assad - being the strategic threat.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:39 PM
 
4,250 posts, read 3,319,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Assad isn't the solution, he is the cause....the problem is that you are thinking tactically. You need to think strategically. This isn't a place for amateur's. Secularism or extreme Islam isn't the problem or the solution, it's all about power and tribal influences, it doesn't matter if it's ISIS or HAMAS or the TALIBAN, religion, like nationalism, is just a tool for power. PLO (pretty much a secular organization) was blowing up Israeli's and others years before radical islam became a watchword. Really, forget all these media terms - this is just a huge proxy war between Shiite's and Sunni's. Tribal wars.

Tactically, his replacement will be a problem as hardliner extreemest take over. But that's not the true strategic problem. The problem is that he supports the 800 pound gorillas in the room - Iran, his support for Hamas, nuclear weapon development, Israel proxy wars, China and Russia support.... It's much more complex. Who will take his place? Is Somalia or Libya really a strategic threat? They are a regional threat that can be managed. Assad on the other hand has allies, has power, has influence with our enemies. Assad has to go if possible, just like Saddam before him and Kaddafi (at least in his crazier days). Not to say we should start a war to remove him, that is politically infeasible, but US should support his removal from power.

Now, his replacement won't be better, this is truly a no-win situation. But you deal with the known evil. Basically, he is a state sponsored terrorist group, his fight with another terrorist group doesn't diminish his evil. They are simply two sides of the same coin, with one - Assad - being the strategic threat.
Sure, long live American Imperialism, the real American value! So let's cut out all the yapping about "defending freedom" and "being on the right side of history." If you are the world's biggest imperialist, then at least be honest about it.

In the end, who cares about all the dead Iraqis and the Syrians? And who cares if Iraq is now a fail state and Syria will rapidly become one in the near future if this civil war continues....we have to think "strategically" and these places need to be sent back to the Stone Ages. Who cares about the people of Iraq and Syria? Yeah! America #1 !!!!

Now I understand what they mean when they refer to the US as a "Great Satan".
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:14 PM
 
7,019 posts, read 6,646,258 times
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The US already did start the war, just like they started the war in Libya. The CIA and US special forces started training the Libyan rebels in Eastern Libya two years before the conflict broke out. They had it planned well in advance. Why do you think ISIS had a media campaign ready to go almost from the very outset of the hostilities in Iraq and Syria? These conflicts were not spontaneous revolutions. They had been trained by foreign governments in waging war against the governments in Iraq and Syria, and provided funding and assistance in the matter of influencing the media.
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Old 01-03-2015, 11:29 AM
 
11,586 posts, read 17,518,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Sure, long live American Imperialism, the real American value! So let's cut out all the yapping about "defending freedom" and "being on the right side of history." If you are the world's biggest imperialist, then at least be honest about it.

In the end, who cares about all the dead Iraqis and the Syrians? And who cares if Iraq is now a fail state and Syria will rapidly become one in the near future if this civil war continues....we have to think "strategically" and these places need to be sent back to the Stone Ages. Who cares about the people of Iraq and Syria? Yeah! America #1 !!!!

Now I understand what they mean when they refer to the US as a "Great Satan".
See my note about amateur's and "media terms". You are being glib here, almost to the point of babbling to the point of irrelevance.
It's not an either/or flip of the coin, it's never that simple - with "imperialism" being on one side and "isolationism" being on the other. Both are dangerous concepts. Who cares about Syria? Maybe no one, but many countries are involved and watching this carefully, not only the US - it's a tangled web that causes ripples across the global landscape. We take a measured approach that ensures it results in things acting in our favor with minimal cost and risk, thus no one says start a war, but we should stay involved, stay as an influencing power. And if we don't, if we don't make decisions and influence the world stage, and we already see this because of the US current administration's poor foreign policy performance - other countries start making decisions for us...and it will not be in our favor.
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Old 01-03-2015, 01:00 PM
 
610 posts, read 557,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antequera View Post
Yes I agree. If you put "democracy" in Syria right now, which is supposedly the FSA, the result would be another lawless Somalia. Though honestly, I doubt the FSA would bring about a democratic and free Syrian State, they'd just be Sunni autocrats pandering to Islamist factions, Gulf States, and the West, and wouldn't be surprised if they are more authoritarian than Assad.

Assad is BY FAR the best solution to Syria. He has a predictable and known policy and his rule gave Syria stability for many years.

There is a telling video, in which Assad is walking around a torn neighborhood for Easter, he is visiting the local Church for the occasion, and he starts picking up some iconas of Jesus that are broken and on the ground. He picks those icons up with his bare hands. Tell me, would any other leader of a Muslim country do that? You imagine President of Turkey doing that??

--
Here Assad is visiting a war-torn church during Easter:




God Bless this Man.
God Bless this Man who, along with Moammar Qaddafi, Hosni Mubarak, and Islam Karimov, the Bush regime paid to torture dissenters and those who opposed the Iraq and Afghan invasions, including (but not limited to) children and old women.

He's better than ISIS, and would certainly hold the lid on the boiling pot of genocidal tendencies waiting to explode in the region, but is that really saying all that much?

F**k... even the BTK guy is probably better than a lot of these ISIS loons.

Here's a great piece on it by Jane Mayer in the New Yorker in '05:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...urcing-torture
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Old 01-06-2015, 06:02 PM
 
7,019 posts, read 6,646,258 times
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John McCain met with leaders of al Nusra Front (Al-Qaeda in Syria) and other rebel groups in June 2013.

Syria Accuses John McCain and 3 Others of Entering Illegally - ABC News

McCain heads the International Republican Institute which overseas the USAID program for regime change NED.
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Old 01-06-2015, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Los Awesome, CA
8,520 posts, read 4,745,147 times
Reputation: 3303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antequera View Post
I think we can all agree that both Libya and Iraq have been disasters ever since their respective leaders were ousted with Western support.

1) Libya is in a state of civil war, no stable government, Islamic State controlling part of the country, and other jihadist groups holding sanctuaries in parts of the country. Libya has become another Somalia, but even more dangerous. Oil money can now flow into the hands of such Islamists and potential terrorists.

2) Iraq has been suffering from sectarian strife and its army quickly fell apart as Islamic State fighters pounced on the vulnerability of the country.

Now, if Assad is to fall, the same thing would happen to Syria. The "Syrian Moderates" or FSA are ridiculously weak and would be overrun by the Islamic State and other Islamic Groups in a day. Best case scenario the FSA would control a few government buildings in Damascus and that's it. Syria would become another Libya or Somalia, hence giving more territory and safe havens to terrorists like that of the Islamic State. This would be very dangerous for the Western World.

The fact that Assad is Alawite (technically not Shia or Sunni), has a secular agenda, and is a strongman, is what Syria needs to stay together and not descend into another Libya. It is laughable that some people in the West thinks that FSA, sitting in Istanbul, would be capable of bringing stability to Syria.

What all civilized countries and people in the West need to do is support Assad - he is the only way that Syria will not become another jihadist hub. Assad will continue a secular society with respect towards all minorities, especially Christians and other Alawites.
I agree with the first part of your posting but the bolded part can't be more incorrect. What the west (including America) needs to do is stop meddling in other people's business. If Syrians don't like Assad let them over throw him themselves. There is historical precedence that indicates America can not manufacture lasting well ran democracies. Democratic governments are built organically, with the consensus of the populace, and without outside manipulation. A democracy built any other way will not last...

Last edited by SHABAZZ310; 01-06-2015 at 10:53 PM..
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