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Old 01-01-2015, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
6,321 posts, read 3,498,656 times
Reputation: 15042

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
My daughter was able to shoot well enough to qualify in Texas with a medium-frame .38 by only her third range session. That's certainly no indication of the necessary skill in a real-world confrontation, but that's all the state requires.
The skills needed to pass a CCW course aren't nearly enough to prepare someone for using their firearm in an actual confrontation. For her sake, please encourage your daughter to get more training! Participation in IDPA or USPCA competitions will give her some exposure to shooting accurately while under (mild) adrenaline stress, but even better are courses specifically aimed at improving CCW skills. They can range from 2 days to a week in length, and the best don't just focus on shooting, but include realistic scenario setups where the student blindly walks into a situation and has to make quick decisions on what to do next (which may or may not involve drawing and firing a gun).

And I don't know what model of firearm she owns, but see if you can find an AirSoft (or other working but nonlethal) replica of it that she can safely use to dry-fire and to practice drawing rapidly from concealment. Many ranges prohibit practicing drawing from a holster or from concealment; with a nonlethal replica weapon that physically cannot chamber a round, these skills can be safely practiced at home.

And I highly recommend Kathy Jackson's "The Cornered Cat" (both the book and the website) as a first-rate educational resource for CCW holders - especially female ones!
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:05 AM
 
2,620 posts, read 2,353,932 times
Reputation: 7195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenn82 View Post
I maybe wrong but I don't think he meant anything about an overzealous, vigilante police force or anything like that.


I think he just meant that in general, in any society you do have to use force to stop people are wanting to physically hurt others in that society and we depend on them for our safety to do the job we hope we don't have to do.


But also, they cant be everywhere at once either, so its not a bad idea to want to use something like gun to defend yourself too if you had too, for the same reason.

He also meant, and I thought it was really good point, that for all the anti-gun voters out there, they are the ones who want to FORCE people to no longer be able to buy guns or else give up the ones they do have, which is ironic to say the least.

think about it in an extreme scenario. If the government seriously issued an order that no one can ever have a gun in their home the people refused, they would have to use armed force in order to put that into effect.

they have to use guns on people in order to give up their guns, which is stupid.

he is right. It's just about power structure and who has it and who doesn't want to be subjected to it.

if the government, corrupt police and etc.. are being overzealous, and acing like the judge jury and executioner then how will you stop it from happening to you? how will you defend yourself against that? and against them?

you would have to defend yourself, with a gun or anything else, no matter who it is.
I think that is what he meant in the statement.
I think it's ignorant and unrealistic for anyone to believe that guns could be banned in America. It would never ever happen. And what's ironic about that (though not really) is that I've never once seen an anti-gun proponent argue in favor of banning all firearms in America. It is always--only--pro-gun enthusiasts who say that, furthering the impression that they are paranoid extremists incapable of rational reasoning. Which then makes people like me think, "And my god, these are the ones walking around with guns."

And while I appreciate your post, I disagree with you. When someone shames a person for not carrying a firearm, stating it is shameful that we expect the police to "do our job for us", they are, absolutely, advocating a vigilante police force.
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Tigard, Oregon
854 posts, read 2,481,097 times
Reputation: 656
People! THIS instance was not about violence or protection. Here's a follow up story to share a few more details. She was a sportsman/woman, not an careless nutcase. Regardless, it's all too tragic, the main mistake seems to be in not keeping it on her person (or locked up more securely).

The inside story of how an Idaho toddler shot his mom at Wal-Mart - The Washington Post

Veronica was a very intelligent young mother; a nuclear scientist/chemist, experienced with guns and raised with them being part of her daily life. She was not carrying for protection. Some people run or do yoga daily, in Idaho, people are sportsmen/women people carry guns, hunt, and shoot appropriately on a regular basis. She was born and raised in Idaho where it is very common to carry a firearm, much like your pocket knife, lip gloss, or cellphone.

I understand that in other parts of the country guns equal violence, it's appaling and scary, BUT that's not the case everywhere and for everyone. Here, and in this case, it's a very different mindset.

Last edited by zoso1979; 01-01-2015 at 11:40 AM..
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:24 AM
 
33,059 posts, read 12,557,512 times
Reputation: 20959
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoso1979 View Post
People! THIS instance was not about violence or protection. Here's a follow up story to share a few more details. She was a sportsman/woman, not an careless nutcase. Regardless, it's all too tragic, the main mistake seems to be in not keeping it on her person (or locked up more securely).

The inside story of how an Idaho toddler shot his mom at Wal-Mart - The Washington Post

Veronica was a very intelligent young mother; a scientist/chemist, experienced with guns and raised with them being part of her daily life. She was not carrying for protection. Some people run or do yoga daily, in Idaho, people are sportsmen/women people carry guns, hunt, and shoot appropriately on a regular basis. She was born and raised in Idaho where it is very common to carry a firearm, much like your pocket knife, lip gloss, or cellphone.

I understand that in other parts of the country guns equal violence, it's appaling and scary, BUT that's not the case everywhere and for everyone. Here, and in this case, it's a very different mindset.
I grew up in Idaho and you're right, guns are all over the place. Lots of tales about dogs stepping on a gun in a pickup and shooting off the arm of their owner and so forth.

One of my high school classmates was shot and killed on a morning hunting trip when we were seniors.

Given that that accidents happen all the time, and I mean all the time, I cannot for the life of me figure out why an "intelligent" woman, experienced with guns in her daily life, was toting around a gun without the safety on. With young children in tow no less.

When I heard that it happened at a Walmart, I immediately jumped to erroneous conclusion. I thought she was a backwoods bumpkins. Turns out she was a scientist and smart.

Lord help us all.
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:33 AM
 
215 posts, read 274,114 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoriBee62 View Post
I think it's ignorant and unrealistic for anyone to believe that guns could be banned in America. It would never ever happen. And what's ironic about that (though not really) is that I've never once seen an anti-gun proponent argue in favor of banning all firearms in America. It is always--only--pro-gun enthusiasts who say that, furthering the impression that they are paranoid extremists incapable of rational reasoning. Which then makes people like me think, "And my god, these are the ones walking around with guns."

And while I appreciate your post, I disagree with you. When someone shames a person for not carrying a firearm, stating it is shameful that we expect the police to "do our job for us", they are, absolutely, advocating a vigilante police force.
well I wasn't trying to shame someone for not carrying a gun and you're seriously putting words in my mouth.
I never advocated anything along the line of a vigilante force, If you read that into my statement then that's your mistake.

I sure as hell don't walk around with a gun or anything.

but, I just meant anything can happen in this life and in this world and the police cant always be there

remember you have to CALL them first, but in the case of say, someone breaking into your house quick or even someone approaching you on the street with a gun then, you cant just wishfully hope a cop will walk by.

so no. you cant realistically depend on the police in a lot of real world situations especially if you cant even get the opportunity to call them in the first place

the police show up AFTER something has happened they cant actually PREVENT anyone from doing anything. That's a vague, false sense of security people tell themselves unconsciously.
"prevent crime", "stop crime".

They can only do that with investigations into already known criminal activity, but not prevent the guy about to walk into a liquor store with a 9mm. (which he got off the street btw and not a registered , law abiding/ normal gun owner)

How can they prevent someone from robbing you if they are not already there?
doesn't make any sense.

They only show up AFTER the crime takes place, which maybe too little too late if you're the victim and the person committing the crime really is a psycho or has something to prove to himself.

and although there are extremists on the pro-gun side the truth is most are reasonably afraid
I've never heard anyone seriously think all the anti-gun voters want to take "all the guns from us" or whatever but I think they just feel afraid of what they are not sure of

the more laws that pass to restrict it, then it leaves a feeling of "what's next" and of real vulnerability.

there's really no trust between both sides of the issue because there are a variety of views and to restrict a person's right to have a gun does leave a feeling of fear/vulnerability and a sense your right to protect yourself maybe jeopardized later on, which IMO, is not a right the government itself can ever really give you or take away
it's an inalienable right.

Last edited by Tenn82; 01-01-2015 at 11:44 AM..
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Tigard, Oregon
854 posts, read 2,481,097 times
Reputation: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
I grew up in Idaho and you're right, guns are all over the place. Lots of tales about dogs stepping on a gun in a pickup and shooting off the arm of their owner and so forth.

One of my high school classmates was shot and killed on a morning hunting trip when we were seniors.

Given that that accidents happen all the time, and I mean all the time, I cannot for the life of me figure out why an "intelligent" woman, experienced with guns in her daily life, was toting around a gun without the safety on. With young children in tow no less.

When I heard that it happened at a Walmart, I immediately jumped to erroneous conclusion. I thought she was a backwoods bumpkins. Turns out she was a scientist and smart.

Lord help us all.
Clearly a lot of people thought that. I admit, I did too...at first. She was valedictorian.

Yup...guns go off while cleaning... hunting accidents happen...young children have shot siblings. It's tragic and very sad and not just about ignorance, protection issues and violence. We're human, we sometimes make poor decisions, especially in hindsight. Her husband bought her the purse with the gun compartment as a Christmas gift. I can't begin to imagine how he and their son will deal with this outcome for the rest of their lives.

Last edited by zoso1979; 01-01-2015 at 12:45 PM..
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Old 01-01-2015, 12:21 PM
 
2,620 posts, read 2,353,932 times
Reputation: 7195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenn82 View Post
well I wasn't trying to shame someone for not carrying a gun and you're seriously putting words in my mouth.
I never advocated anything along the line of a vigilante force, If you read that into my statement then that's your mistake.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. You weren't the one who made that comment. It was another poster who did that I was referring to.

But the topic of relying on police for protection is another example of extremism. There are LOTS of ways to defend yourself. Only one of them involves carrying a gun. For what it's worth, my mother had a home invader show up in her bedroom while she was sleeping. She chased him out of the house hitting him with a pillow. Gun enthusiasts will tell you that scenario is impossible, that a firearm is the one and only thing a person can use to protect themselves. That's simply not rational thinking.

We keep a baseball bat under the bed. We also have surveillance cameras on our house. We lock our doors. When I get it my car, I immediately lock the doors. I've taken self defense classes that teach you how to practice awareness of your surroundings and some basic moves to protect yourself in the event of an attack. I've been taught to recognize potentially dangerous situations and scams, and I avoid them. I don't open my door to strangers. Education and common sense can go a long way in helping a person protect themselves without needing to walk around with a gun. Is it foolproof? Of course not. But I'm not going to walk around being obsessed by the .00000001% chance of being in a situation where a gun and only a gun would have saved me.

Really, I don't have a problem with guns. I've got lots of friends who are cops and lots of friends who own firearms. What I have a problem with are extremists who can't comprehend anything that isn't black or white. They'll have you think that if you aren't carrying a gun, then you must be a moron who parades around in dank, crime-riddled neighborhoods, half naked waving money and yelling, "Rob and rape me!" Reality is, for every crime that was averted because the potential victim had a firearm, there are ten crimes averted by people who didn't have firearms.

It's the extremism, irrationality and paranoia that scares me more than anything. It just so happens that people with those characteristics are often the ones walking around with loaded weapons.
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 49,625,513 times
Reputation: 24548
What kind of gun was this? What gun is light enough for a 2 yr old to hold let alone fire?
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:37 PM
 
18,011 posts, read 9,883,430 times
Reputation: 17506
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
What kind of gun was this? What gun is light enough for a 2 yr old to hold let alone fire?
Could be any of several light 9mm, such as a Ruger LC9, a Taurus PT709, or my personal favorite, a S&W Shield. But I'm dubious that he'd manage to find it, withdraw it, hold it, and fire it without some kind of familiarization in one or more steps of that process.
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Tigard, Oregon
854 posts, read 2,481,097 times
Reputation: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoriBee62 View Post
It's the extremism, irrationality and paranoia that scares me more than anything. It just so happens that people with those characteristics are often the ones walking around with loaded weapons.
"OFTEN?" Or maybe they are the outliers we hear about in the news.
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