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Old 01-14-2015, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Keller, TX
5,663 posts, read 5,150,762 times
Reputation: 4074

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
Does chemo even help at all? Does it do anything at all for longevity and quality of life? Thousands of years ago, in certain societies people tried to fix some ailments by drilling into the skull of the patient. It seems to me that chemo is a similiarly ignorant and barbaric way of trying to treat cancer.
You refer to trepanning. I said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
I think alternative medicine, as a whole, is kind of dumb. But chemo (and other unrelated modern medical practices) can be dumb too. Someday (I hope) future people will look back at how we treated cancer and just shake their heads, the way we look at trepanning to release evil spirits. My father was a physician for forty years and went through chemo for Hep. He's been quite clear he will not be undergoing anything other than palliative care if he's diagnosed with any form of cancer that might warrant chemo.
Indeed Interferon and Radiation are a bit barbaric. They're the best we've come up with to try and treat something which is basically our own biology, our own cells getting the conveyor belt of cell replacement all jacked up like some old cartoon of an assembly line mishap.
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:43 PM
 
6,295 posts, read 3,545,829 times
Reputation: 7183
[quote=markg91359;38016481]There is nothing new about this kind of case. This has been going on for years. The courts won't stand idly by while a nutjob parent refuses medical care that has a strong likelihood of saving a child's life.

Here are a couple of cases involving both blood transfusions and cancer treatment from the past.

Mayo column: South Florida children saved by forced blood transfusions after parents object - Sun Sentinel

Judge orders chemotherapy for 13-year-old cancer patient - CNN.com


Sadly, there are also cases where the courts don't intervene in time and a child dies. Sometimes parents are criminally prosecuted too.

When Parents Call God Instead of the Doctor - TIME

This isn't a "slippery slope". Its the way the courts have dealt with medical neglect of children for years.

No one is talking about forcing adults to accept medical treatment. The only exception would be the adult who clearly is mentally incompetent.

This is a phony issue.[/

Not adults? Maybe not physically forcing them, but they can lose their jobs and/or be penalized up the wahzoo for "non compliance" with what health insurance "recommends" for them.
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Old 01-14-2015, 05:03 PM
 
6,295 posts, read 3,545,829 times
Reputation: 7183
What Is an Emancipated Minor? (with pictures)

So if this had happened after Cassandra had graduated HS in June at 17 and 6 months (November birthdate), she had gotten a full time job (parents permission not requried), moved out and gotten her own apartment, totally self supporting paying all their own bills, a Court would still consider her a Minor under the control of either parents or the State for medical reasons? Not mature enough to be able to do all that? Hello? A lot of adult over 21 aren't doing that.

As this article states, these situations routinely involve Child Actors (making a lot of money), and of course, Minors who are in Military Service (Uncle Sam is the "parent" no matter HOW old they are).
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Old 01-14-2015, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,271 posts, read 28,068,309 times
Reputation: 28716
[quote=Jo48;38024919]What Is an Emancipated Minor? (with pictures)

So if this had happened after Cassandra had graduated HS in June at 17 and 6 months (November birthdate), she had gotten a full time job (parents permission not requried), moved out and gotten her own apartment, totally self supporting paying all their own bills, a Court would still consider her a Minor under the control of either parents or the State for medical reasons? Not mature enough to be able to do all that? Hello? A lot of adult over 21 aren't doing that.

As this article states, these situations routinely involve Child Actors (making a lot of money), and of course, Minors who are in Military Service (Uncle Sam is the "parent" no matter HOW old they are).[/QUOTE

Cassandra was not totally on her own, though.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:20 PM
 
12,665 posts, read 9,904,693 times
Reputation: 9424
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post


No, incompetence cases are not usually about young kids. They are more often adults, including older adults.
That's what I said - go back and read my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
My son did an evaluation on a boy when he reached age 18, wanted to manage his own money, and was clearly unable to do so even at that age.

Should a thirteen year old be allowed to drive, even get a commercial driver's license? Have you ever even been around teenagers? What you propose is scary.
Driving is a separate issue from age of majority. For purposes of this discussion, I am not saying one way or the other on that matter.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:33 PM
 
12,665 posts, read 9,904,693 times
Reputation: 9424
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Mental capacity is one thing, but mental capacity and maturity are two totally different things.

A thirteen year old may be intelligent enough and cognizant enough to make a decision, but without maturity, that decision is not completely and wholly informed.

I shudder at the thought of living amongst a bunch of fully emancipated 8th graders.
Ok, well then maybe we need to re-think the usage of a mental capacity criterion in adult cases as well. If I accept your pretense, this would be necessary to be consistent.

Would a society of fully emancipated 8th graders be problematic? I don't know, in fact no one really knows the answer to such questions. Suffice it to say that the idea that they are simply not mature enough to make responsible life choices is not supported by data. In The Case Against Adolescence, psychologist Robert Epstein shows that neither historical evidence, nor biological considerations, nor direct behavioral studies, lend credence to the widely held view that adolescents are immature and incompetent at making decisions for themselves.

To defend the common view (which, as I am arguing here, seems flawed) that individuals in that life stage are too immature to make their own decisions, one must first address the issue of how one can determine what behaviors constitute evidence of maturity, of lack thereof. And there must be a fair method of making such an assessment, at least in principle. Otherwise what you say about the ages at which people possess sufficient maturity levels is something you basically just made up, with no reasoned analysis to support it.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,271 posts, read 28,068,309 times
Reputation: 28716
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
Ok, well then maybe we need to re-think the usage of a mental capacity criterion in adult cases as well. If I accept your pretense, this would be necessary to be consistent.

Would a society of fully emancipated 8th graders be problematic? I don't know, in fact no one really knows the answer to such questions. Suffice it to say that the idea that they are simply not mature enough to make responsible life choices is not supported by data. In The Case Against Adolescence, psychologist Robert Epstein shows that neither historical evidence, nor biological considerations, nor direct behavioral studies, lend credence to the widely held view that adolescents are immature and incompetent at making decisions for themselves.

To defend the common view (which, as I am arguing here, seems flawed) that individuals in that life stage are too immature to make their own decisions, one must first address the issue of how one can determine what behaviors constitute evidence of maturity, of lack thereof. And there must be a fair method of making such an assessment, at least in principle. Otherwise what you say about the ages at which people possess sufficient maturity levels is something you basically just made up, with no reasoned analysis to support it.
An automobile insurance agent told me it was not a matter of if your teenager would have an automobile accident but when. We let them learn to drive at 15, drive alone at 16, in most states. Many may have the basic physical ability to drive, but their judgement leaves much to be desired. They drive too fast, drive while texting, and they overestimate their skill. I think we would all agree that we are better drivers as adults than we were as teenagers. We allow teens to drive, frankly, for the convenience of their parents. Some teens are more mature drivers than others.

Some adolescents are indeed more mature than others in other ways, too.. That is why the decision to allow someone under 18 the right to make decisions for herself is made on a case by case basis. Cassandra has not convinced a panel of seven Supreme Court justices that she is one of the mature ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
That's what I said - go back and read my post.
You were referring to adults? Your post was not clear. No, an adult would not have to be judged the same as a 5, 7, or 13 year old to be declared incompetent. Most of the time it is due to dementia. That is an entirely different thing from the case we are talking about.
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Old 01-15-2015, 01:07 AM
 
Location: the Permian Basin
4,193 posts, read 3,060,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkmax View Post
I'm not sure why this story has blown up so much. When you're younger than 18, you don't have the legal right to say no to medical attention.
But your parents do have the right to refuse medical treatment for you.
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Old 01-15-2015, 01:51 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,271 posts, read 28,068,309 times
Reputation: 28716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX View Post
But your parents do have the right to refuse medical treatment for you.
Not if it puts your life at risk, as in this case.


http://www.law.uh.edu/healthlaw/pers...29%20Faith.pdf

"Just as with pharmacists' and physicians' claims that they can refuse to provide medical care to select adult patients because such care conflicts with their religious beliefs or their conscience became more commonplace as a result of political empowerment of the religious right, so too there seems to be a rise in similar claims made by parents for denials of care for their children. Children, however, are different than adults, and it appears based on the small number of cases thus far that even if a cultural climate which
may be more conservative, the ability to refuse care may have much firmer limits when the care involves children. Both state and the federal government appear to be more willing to intervene when a child's life is threatened. Parents may legally be allowed to sacrifice their own lives for religious or conscience reasons, but not their children's."
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Old 01-15-2015, 05:06 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
14,559 posts, read 8,386,623 times
Reputation: 29100
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I have read some other articles about Cassandra, including some with comments from people claiming to know her that confirm my impression of the mom. I will not link to them because they are hearsay.

I had not really registered that the last hearing was before a panel of seven judges, who unanimously agreed that Cassandra was not mature enough to make medical decisions.

Other people have also noted that there has likely been a professional psychological evaluation, the results of which have not been, and should not be, released. However, if that report favored the mature minor theory, I strongly suspect the mother would have allowed it to be made public.
You keep repeating this mantra that Cassandra has probably had a psychological evaluation. There is no evidence of that. And even if she has had a psychological evaluation, and the results made Cassandra look competent to make this decision, releasing it to the public would not benefit her, since she is still being forced to undergo the treatment. And if the mother had released the results, she would be subjected to a barrage of public criticism for doing so, and she may be violating federal HIPAA laws as well.
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