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Old 01-15-2015, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,416 posts, read 27,955,987 times
Reputation: 7250

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyMack View Post
Poor ol Georgie should be in prison for stalking and manslaughter, just a matter of time before he does it again ... Or he starts a fight with someone that has a CCW and the problem is solved.
Exactly! Some other famous "innocent" verdicts:

Joran van der Sloot ... just look at what he did on the 5 year anniversary of Natalee Holloway's murder ... kill another young woman!

OJ Simpson ... several years later he goes on a gun drawn criminal rampage ... and ends up in jail forever anyway!

The other "found innocent" person I am waiting for to cross the line into violent criminal again is another famous Floridian, Casey Anthony!

 
Old 01-15-2015, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,416 posts, read 27,955,987 times
Reputation: 7250
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinytrump View Post
i want to know where the Zim-- backers are now-- who now can see he is a BAD boy after all
There's a few right on this thread! Let's see if they'd let THEIR DAUGHTER date old Georgie ...
 
Old 01-15-2015, 12:54 PM
 
38,270 posts, read 15,350,382 times
Reputation: 16877
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
.....

The other "found innocent" person I am waiting for to cross the line into violent criminal again is another famous Floridian, Casey Anthony!
Would you be happy if these individuals, which you are waiting on to commit future criminal activity, instead found the Lord, turned their lives around, and made positive contributions to society? Or would you be disappointed?
 
Old 01-15-2015, 12:57 PM
 
7,948 posts, read 3,738,395 times
Reputation: 10426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post
The problem I have with what you say is that you are assuming that since Trayvon Martin was who he was, Zimmerman had a reason to be suspicious and/or fearful of his presence in the neighborhood. One thing led to another, Zimmerman shoots a kid and kills him, and it's all just a tragic (for Zimmerman) mistake. You are making assumptions, mostly unsaid, that are evil and callous, and this is why I am so much against anything you have to offer.
Well I can see from your further responses we have a communication problem on this issue. For instance I did not say I believed everything in Zimmerman's version. Rather I was essentially saying for the sake of argument assume it was true or close to the truth. Sadly we do not and will not ever have Martins perspective, so we are left with whatever evidence there is, juxtaposed to what Zimmerman's version of events are.
Like it or not, by and large his version of events seem to be backed up by the evidence (i.e. injuries, trajectory of the bullet, etc.)
If none or little of that matched up, Zimmerman would likely have been charged with some type of crime.

As to Martin being "who he was", I have no way to know that.
For instance I went from an initial impression of how could this thug kill an innocent unarmed child, to a different perspective over time.
I gave Martin the benefit of the doubt at first because of how the media framed the story. His picture was of an angelic looking kid, maybe 13 years old or so. The picture of Zimmerman was a mug shot of him in an orange jump suit which led me to think he was a criminal thug. Just those two things alone helped form my initial reaction. Then when you hear the kid was unarmed, had candy in his pocket and was gunned down by this big man, it was hard not to speculate in favor of Martin and against Zimmerman.

That said, once we started getting a broader understanding of who both these people were, it became clear the media framed this story in such a way as to take sides and stir the racial pot. I guess the difference for me is that my view evolved as more information became available, where as Martin supporters are stuck with their initial impressions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post


This is exactly what I mean about the assumptions you've been making. Obviously Martin wasn't the one doing the confronting.


He would be alive today if George Zimmerman hadn't decided to play Keystone Kop.
Lets try to not talk past each other. While I can see your point, there is a distinction here. I would agree that the initial confrontation was initiated by Zimmerman based on Zimmerman's 911 call. However once he supposedly disengaged his pursuit of Martin, that is where you and other likeminded people stop believing anything Zimmerman had to say. More on that in a moment.

Some how or some way, they obviously came in contact with each other again, but the question is how and why. A diagram of the complex showed how one could get in or out of the area. I think we can agree that Martin could probably outrun Zimmerman based on what we know of the two of them. It also sounded as if Martin was out of Zimmerman's sight by the time the dispatcher asked whether he was chasing him, and asked him to stop.
Therefore if Martin had kept on running home, we would never have heard of either one of them. So unless Zimmerman somehow anticipated were Martin was, chances are Martin was now looking to confront Zimmerman.
But lets say they just happened upon each other, since we don't really know. I think you are astute enough to know Martin would not have charged at an armed man, so they were both near each other when a physical confrontation occurred. With me so far?
So they get into a scuffle, and Martin gets the upper hand and has Zimmerman screaming like a little girl. At this point all Martin had to do was get up and leave. Had Zimmerman pulled his gun after the fact and shot Martin in the back as he was leaving, game over, and Zimmerman is in jail.
For whatever reason Martin continued to beat on Zimmerman, and we know the end result.


As to the Keystone cop comment, that is something we probably agree on to a certain extent, but it is also speculation. Whether he was a cop wannabe or not, he was involved in his neighborhood watch, trying to help his community. A case of mistaken identity maybe. A racist thug looking to kill an innocent kid without provocation? I think not, nor does the evidence indicate such.

What I fail to understand is why Martin supporters are so willing to accept part of Zimmerman's version that backs up their idea/speculation, but not anything that casts doubt upon it?
Either Zimmerman is a flat out liar with no credibility, or he told the truth, probably colored from his own perspective/bias.
Regardless, had Martin not taken some of his actions, he likely would be alive to today. He didn't need to run initially, but once he did, he should have kept going. Heck he should have called the police and reported Zimmerman as being a menacing person following him in his truck. Isn't that what most people with a cellphone in that situation would have done if they were scared?

`
 
Old 01-15-2015, 12:58 PM
 
48,966 posts, read 39,428,364 times
Reputation: 30617
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
He would be alive today if he had just left the scene instead of getting into an altercation with the "Creepy-Ass-Cracker".
That's what got Zimmerman found not-guilty.

There are three degrees of the encounter and #3 is what occurred.

1) Zimmerman stops him, fight breaks out, TM is shot.....IMO Zimmerman goes to jail.

2) Zimmerman sees him, TM runs, Zimmerman catches up.....IMO Zimmerman goes to jail.

3) Zim.....TM runs, TM goes back to confront Zimmerman....etc. Zimmerman goes free.

Doesn't mean we have to like Zimmerman or dislike TM or vice-versa.

You go back to deal with the creepy ass cracker and it creates reasonable doubt.
It's that simple.

Personally, I think I'd rather be friends with Trayvon than Zimmerman....but being followed by somebody doesn't mean you get to kick their arse.
 
Old 01-15-2015, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,416 posts, read 27,955,987 times
Reputation: 7250
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
Would you be happy if these individuals, which you are waiting on to commit future criminal activity, instead found the Lord, turned their lives around, and made positive contributions to society? Or would you be disappointed?
I was happy for Karla Faye Tucker and the state of Texas at the same time!
 
Old 01-15-2015, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 32,919,302 times
Reputation: 11780
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
I was happy for Karla Faye Tucker and the state of Texas at the same time!
Yeah, really. She found the Lord, and the State of Texas made it possible for them to meet face to face.
 
Old 01-15-2015, 01:46 PM
 
7,948 posts, read 3,738,395 times
Reputation: 10426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Railman96 View Post
Maybe Zimmerman's parents should've taught him not to go around stalking people at night, and when someone in a authoritative position gives you an order (9/11 dispatcher) you follow their order, that way you don't have to get your overweight ass beaten and you won't have to murder people.
Ok, why are you using the term stalking for starters, other than trying to be hyperbolic?

He was in his own neighborhood as part of a neighborhood watch and saw someone that he did not recognize as living there. He was correct about that, correct?
So he keeps an eye on him and calls the police, like he presumably should, even in his detractors minds, correct?
With the police dispatcher on the phone he gives an accurate description of Martin, including his age, clothes, etc., and then points out that Martin is staring at him, and then starts walking toward Zimmerman.
So how is that "stalking" on Zimmerman's part?

As to your comment about the 911 dispatcher, lets take it step by step. The dispatcher is not a LEO, and has no authority to order anyone to do anything, at least not legally. Regardless, once Zimmerman announces Martin took off running, and the dispatcher puts together by the sound of things he got out of his truck and is chasing after Martin, they advise Zimmerman to stop following him, and Zimmerman said that he would.
Now I grant you that Zimmerman could have stayed in his vehicle, however many people, though not a majority, would potentially try to see where this stranger to the neighborhood ran off to. I would hardly call that stalking.

I will also point out, without going into detail that nothing indicated Zimmerman "murdered" Martin. He did kill him, but it was presumably in self defense. It sounds to me that many here wish that Zimmerman was not armed and assume that Martin would eventually stop beating on Zimmerman. By that time, Zimmerman might have been dead himself.

I still wonder to this day what possessed Martin to continue to beat on Zimmerman for close to a minute or more, with Zimmerman screaming for help. I wonder about this for reasons some might not understand, but may agree with me on.

I was raised that if you fight with someone, once you have the better of them, you stop, not continue to beat them. I was also taught this when I took martial arts at a young age, well before MMA was around. However now days with MMA being popular and on TV for everyone to see, the new tactic seems to be you continue to beat someone to a pulp even though they are unconscious or disabled. Some fighters wait until the ref practically tackles them before they will stop beating the guy.
So I am wondering beyond a general observation of our society devolving, if MMA is influencing kids to think you don't offer to hand the guy his hat after winning the fight. Instead you beat him into unconsciousness and only stop if someone else intervenes?
While I do not expect people to fight by the Marquess of Queensbery Rules anymore(really before my time anyway), I do think men can have legitimate reasons to fight, but not have a desire to maim or kill the other guy. Then again parts of our culture devalues life to such a degree that poor little kids are being gunned down and stabbed to death over their sneakers.
What happened to the good old days of bullies taking kids lunch money or even clothing/sneakers, and both of them walking away alive?

`
 
Old 01-15-2015, 01:54 PM
 
Location: La Mesa Aka The Table
7,192 posts, read 7,527,496 times
Reputation: 7993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
Yes, but it does not have a bearing on my comment you quoted, regarding him possibly having gotten worse and being adversely effected by the whole ordeal. Sure Martin got the worst of it, but it has been no walk in the park for Zimmerman either.

As to your second comment quoting another poster, sure if he stayed in his truck neither of them would have likely been hurt.

That said, even if you do not have crime as a common occurrence in your neighborhood(like Zimmerman did), you probably have something in your life that never seems to get resolved, and the offender always seems to get away with it. Maybe it is waiting in line going to work to make a left hand turn. The line is always long, and you patiently wait your turn. Yet every morning you see cars skip the line, then jump in front when the traffic starts moving.
Eventually you get fed up, call the police, and request they put a watch order at that traffic control. If you are lucky they might show up for one shift, but nothing after that, and you must deal with the issue every day of your life.
My point is not to conflate an annoying traffic problem with burglary in a neighborhood. However those who seemed to be inclined to empathize with Martin(typically overlooking his faults in the situation), rarely empathize with what Zimmerman was thinking.
Sure he thinks differently than you and many others, I get that. However there are normal people out there who understand his frustration, especially when his neighbors/family/friends homes are being broken into.


He had apparently done the right thing in your mind previous times, only to wait for the police to arrive well after the person reported was long gone. If you read my previous post about handicapped parking violators typically getting away prior to LE arrival, you can see how people such as myself think/feel/act.
So while Zimmerman may very well be a loser in life, his actions that night were not so out of the norm (for the situation) that people such as myself can empathize with his thoughts.

Ever think of it that way?

`
The problem i have is, 2 weeks previous he reported a problem and Police caught some of the culprits (Public Records)
Mr. Zimmerman has to understand that, everything in life does not always go your way.
You say he may of have some sort of PTSD, i say he had some sort of Precondition before TM. We can agree to disagree i guess, but if GZ should not be prejudge before that night, then neither should be TM.
 
Old 01-15-2015, 02:12 PM
 
7,948 posts, read 3,738,395 times
Reputation: 10426
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitman619 View Post
The problem i have is, 2 weeks previous he reported a problem and Police caught some of the culprits (Public Records)
Mr. Zimmerman has to understand that, everything in life does not always go your way.
You say he may of have some sort of PTSD, i say he had some sort of Precondition before TM. We can agree to disagree i guess, but if GZ should not be prejudge before that night, then neither should be TM.
Actually I don't think there is a whole lot we disagree about based on this reply. I have no clue if "GZ was messed up prior to the incident of TM. I also have no way of knowing if his current behavior is effected by the incident, but I do proffer the notion that something like that would effect most people in some manner.
I am not saying PTSD or any clinical diagnosis, just merely saying it could effect anyone to some degree.

As to what they were both like prior to their encounter, I'd say it is relevant for both of them to try and establish why they may have been doing what they were. I by no means believe only TM's past should be examined and not GZ's. With this being such a high profile case, I suspect that both of their pasts were put under more scrutiny then anyone would ever care to have done to them.
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