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Old 01-16-2015, 08:40 PM
 
741 posts, read 721,894 times
Reputation: 1356

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Year2525 View Post
Get on the stand, say you shoot to kill and do not pass go, instead go to prison. Talk is cheap until the reality of the law listens to what you have to say.
In the US, state law sets out what makes a homicide justifiable or not.
In pretty much every state, burglary of an occupied dwelling entitles the person occupying that dwelling to use deadly force barring extreme facts.

Here's a case of extreme facts where a homeowner may have gone too far...
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/me-minn-...t-close-range/

... but if anything, its more a cautionary tale of why you never, ever, ever give a statement to police subsequent to a shooting other than "I was in fear for my life, I wish to speak with an attorney before giving any statements". Let them arrest you. You'll make bond. That is trivial compared to what might come next if you give the 'wrong answer' to one of their questions.

Yet again, someone cooks their own goose by running their mouth during the investigation process without first consulting with an attorney.
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Old 01-17-2015, 02:45 AM
 
Location: Riverside County / Maricopa County
2,426 posts, read 1,773,383 times
Reputation: 1888
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefragile View Post
Word. I believe another poster on here, who just posted that your post was incorrect, said the exact same thing to me. Can't remember what the topic was.
Haha, right here. I noticed that too, right after saying posters don't resort to the "leave the country" argument, out comes this gem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
Sure there is a comparison. You choose to continue to live here.

Nobody is stopping you from going to Africa, if you are claiming to be "African" American. Trouble is, I'm doubtful you will find a country under majority Black rule that has managed to maintain Western Civilization created by Whites, in the few short decades they have had independence. And if Christianity is giving Africans indigestion, you can always go back to witch doctors dancing around chicken entrails along with human sacrifices.

Please feel free to send a postcard when you get there. (hmm, NVM, the postal service is a cornerstone of Western Civ too)

Classic City Data.
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Old 01-17-2015, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Austin
12,039 posts, read 6,878,278 times
Reputation: 13306
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATG5 View Post
This is always the go-to response for these people when anyone disagrees with something they support in 'Murica.


Never gets old.
My comment was sincere. Liam, unlike most US citizens, does have a choice of countries, due to duel citizenship and wealth, in which to live and Ireland does have a lower gun murder rate.
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Old 01-17-2015, 08:16 AM
 
44,352 posts, read 17,716,609 times
Reputation: 18666
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan2yankee View Post
My comment was sincere. Liam, unlike most US citizens, does have a choice of countries, due to duel citizenship and wealth, in which to live and Ireland does have a lower gun murder rate.
Indeed. Much Lower

Republic of Ireland Demographic Info. (2011 census)
  • White - 94.3%
  • Asian - 1.9%
  • Other - not stated - 2.5%
  • Black - 1.4%
It's makeup is much like rural & suburban America where gun murders are very low.
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Old 01-17-2015, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Poshawa, Ontario
2,986 posts, read 3,306,782 times
Reputation: 5622
This clown is railing against guns while he is making a veritable fortune exploiting violence by glorifying their use. Hypocrite much?

More proof that one does not require an IQ greater than a golf shoe to make it in the entertainment business. Why anyone takes a celebrity's opinion on any topic seriously is far beyond my comprehension.
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Old 01-17-2015, 11:17 AM
 
5,573 posts, read 3,641,939 times
Reputation: 5393
I think people focus too much on gun ownership and too little on how easy it is to get a gun.

Law abiding, sane people shouldn't worry about the latter being made a bit more strict. Give me a couple hours and I can bring you multiple untraceable firearms. That's the problem.
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Old 01-17-2015, 11:47 AM
 
2,852 posts, read 2,962,385 times
Reputation: 1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordSquidworth View Post
I think people focus too much on gun ownership and too little on how easy it is to get a gun.

Law abiding, sane people shouldn't worry about the latter being made a bit more strict. Give me a couple hours and I can bring you multiple untraceable firearms. That's the problem.
You mean like:
18 month wait to buy a pistol.
Needing to take 2-3 days off to get the paperwork and interviews.
$300+ dollars every 3 years to maintain the permit.
Take another day off every time you want to buy another pistol (hours are only 9-4 M-F)
Limit ownership of carrying capacity to less then police minimum standards to self protection.


We need more of NYs laws?

How about if we apply the same laws to Freedom of Speech or Abortion? Didn't get your abortion permit before you started having sex, ohh well you'll have to have this kid and possibly another before you can obtain your permit. Sorry.
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Old 01-17-2015, 03:59 PM
 
741 posts, read 721,894 times
Reputation: 1356
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBulletZ06 View Post
How about if we apply the same laws to Freedom of Speech or Abortion? Didn't get your abortion permit before you started having sex, ohh well you'll have to have this kid and possibly another before you can obtain your permit. Sorry.
The fallacy we see on display here is called "false equivalence".

"Since you have to fill out forms and get fingerprinted to buy dynamite, how about we do the same for swimming pools, huh? Look at how many children drown every year!"

Its really quite embarrassing, the people who engage in awful false equivalence are almost never inherently logical people so they aren't aware of how cringe-worthy their 'ideas' are but from time to time, its good to see examples of bad logical fallacy to remind us all of the importance of thinking things through.
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Old 01-17-2015, 04:29 PM
 
2,852 posts, read 2,962,385 times
Reputation: 1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaba View Post
The fallacy we see on display here is called "false equivalence".

"Since you have to fill out forms and get fingerprinted to buy dynamite, how about we do the same for swimming pools, huh? Look at how many children drown every year!"

Its really quite embarrassing, the people who engage in awful false equivalence are almost never inherently logical people so they aren't aware of how cringe-worthy their 'ideas' are but from time to time, its good to see examples of bad logical fallacy to remind us all of the importance of thinking things through.
You fail to understand that the Bill of Rights isn't a salad bar that you can chose which one you like and which one you do not like. I persons individual right to speak out is the same importance as the individual right to own a firearm to protect themselves and is of the same importance as to be free from wrongful arrest and imprisonment.

Even the Supreme Court has stated, "We do not know of any tiering of constitutional rights" (Heller vs DC). It is not my false equivalency, it is your inability to rationalize that the 2nd Amendment carries the same weight as the First and if you are so callous to allow infringements based upon personal belief instead of the written document then it has a very slippery slope effect upon the rest of your rights.

From a first hand account of the NYC process that people want. Again think about it being applied to any other rights:

Quote:
Well...6 months after applying...I have been approved for a NYC handgun license...valid ONLY for possession in the home, and for target shooting. Not for carry.

I primarily live in upstate NY, where I have a lifetime CCW permit, and where I keep most of my guns...but I have an apartment in Manhattan that I use for work quite often...so I figured I would get permits to possess some guns there.

What did it take to apply for a NYC handgun possession / target permit?

First, fill out the application, get passport photos taken, and get all kinds of notarized forms together. Notarized leases, notarized utility bills, notarized disposition reports from ANY run in the law you have EVER had (even speeding tickets), notarized letters stating you know NYS laws regarding use of deadly force and handgun laws, a notarized letter stating that you give up ALL privacy rights to your medical records...even notarized letters from anyone you may live with saying they are OK with you owning a handgun in the home...

Oh and a $340 fee to apply, plus $99 for fingerprinting. Non-refundable...even if you are denied. Oh and you have to renew your permit, and resubmit $340 every 3 years. Where does that money go you ask? Since they don't do any more extensive background checks for renewals? It goes RIGHT into the NYPD pension fund...NONE goes to fund the actual handgun license renewals.

What could you be denied for? ANYTHING. Too many speeding tickets? Denied. Not currently employed? Denied. Have a disability like epilepsy, a missing finger, or take any anxiety medications? DENIED. Have tax problems? Denied. Child support problems? Denied. Don't show proper respect to the NYPD gun license clerks? Denied.

Seriously. It is all typed up in their official rules.

So anyway, once you get all the applications and forms together, you have to take a half day or full day off work to submit the application, and get fingerprinted.

Then you wait. About 1-2 months for a letter, asking you to bring in MORE paperwork, and schedule a personal interview with the investigator. Now I have to get notarized pay stubs from my work, or letters of employment...W2s and tax returns from the past few years, AND 3 character reference letters, from 3 people that have known you for 5 years or more, and that live in NYC. Non family members. How many non-family people do you keep in touch with closely for over 5 years?? Not easy to find. The character reference letters must say that they approve of you owning a handgun, and that you aren't crazy.

What happens if all the people you know are anti gun? Or if you don't have any close friends? DENIED.

So after getting all these additional forms together from friends and work and your accountant...you have to go in for your interview.

So you take yet another day off from work, go to 1 Police Plaza, and get interviewed by some low IQ liberal that doesn't speak proper English...and is only 1 step from being a full blown ghetto rat. Not kidding.

Then you wait...and wait...and wait...about 5 months. Then one fine day, you get a letter saying you are approved.

But wait - there is a catch...if you don't return to 1 Police Plaza within 30 days to physically pick up your handgun license, your license approval is cancelled and you have to start over from scratch. And pay again.

So what if you are out of town or on a long work trip for 4 weeks? Denied. Start over. Sorry.

So you have to take yet ANOTHER day off work to go to the NYPD, pick up your license, and get a "purchase authorization card" allowing you to buy a handgun. And again, YOU MUST BUY A HANDGUN WITHIN 30 DAYS of picking up your license...if you don't, your license is cancelled, and you start from scratch.

So you have your little plastic card license...and you have to buy a handgun within 30 days. What if you can't currently afford a handgun at that time? Sorry. Buy one NOW or your license is revoked forever. What if you want to spend more than 30 days researching the best gun for you (since you were never able to even TOUCH a handgun in NY until you have a permit in your hands)...Sorry, buy a handgun NOW or you are denied.

So you buy a handgun, either from an FFL, a family member with a NYS handgun license, an LEO, or another NYS resident with a handgun license (but you must now get a background check for private sales, unless it is immediate family).

So you bought a gun and you take it home...FINALLY right?

NOT SO FAST...NOW, within 72 hours of purchase, you have to take YET ANOTHER day off work, return to 1 Police Plaza, and present the gun for "inspection."

Here, they make sure it is legal in NY and NYC, and that you have only mags that are 10 rounds or less. They record the serial numbers, and print out a new plastic card with the handgun listed on the back.

Now you legally own the handgun. Finally. But don't take it out of your home, unless you are going DIRECTLY to and from a shooting range or DEC hunting area. Hell, the NYPD even had to give a special "amnesty" to NYC handgun owners when Hurricane Sandy hit, and some people had to evacuate...just so these people could "temporarily" relocate their handguns to a safe place.
The long gun permit you ask? So I can possess rifles or shotguns? Pretty much the same process, except they don't make you bring the gun in for inspection. What guns can you own in NYC? Well if it is semi auto, it can't have ANY evil features. No pistol grip, bayo lug, tele stock...nothing. Oh and NO long guns can have a capacity of more than 5 rounds. No long gun mags can be over 5 rounds. Pretty much eliminating ALL long guns suitable for self defense, no??

Oh and you can only buy / register ONE gun every 90 days

Last edited by SilverBulletZ06; 01-17-2015 at 04:43 PM..
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Old 01-17-2015, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,415 posts, read 3,726,497 times
Reputation: 9176
I have actually talked to lawyers about this. Long story short, you are better off legally if no one gets shot.

If someone gets shot, there will be legal proceedings. If you do shoot an intruder in your home, there is the possibility you may have to sell or take out a 2nd mortgage on your home to pay for your legal defense against criminal and/or civil charges. I always tell gun owners that. Every state's self defense statutes say you have the right to use deadly force in reasonable scenarios. The judge and jury will determine "reasonable."

The worst case scenario legally is this: a drunk college student, in his stupor, mistakenly enters your house. You shoot this person who was not not a threat. Killing someone for trespassing is not "reasonable" use of force. He has no criminal record and has strong character witnesses. Maybe you live in a gun friendly state and somehow you avoid a manslaughter conviction, but that's not the end. His family has money so they lawyer up - they will come after everything in civil litigation. This actually happened in the college town I lived in Texas. I could get into racial issues too - if you shoot a middle class white person with no record for trespassing it's likely things won't be good for you. The "lost drunk" scenario is actually much more statistically likely than some kind of aggressive invasion of your home.

Oh, and if you're negligent with your firearm and a neighbor or friend's kid gets shot while at your home.... Katy bar the door.

That's why I bought a Taser, because after reading the self-defense statutes and talking to a lawyer - non lethal defense is FAR MORE protected legally than lethal. The laws essentially say that non lethal force is completely justified if there is an intruder in your home. Lethal is not. Lethal has that qualifier of "reasonable."

A 2006 case in my state where a man shot and killed his brother in law after said brother in law rammed a car into the defendent's car and pointed a weapon at him was still convicted of murder. The case went to the state supreme court before being overturned; he's out of jail but I bet his lawyers got a pretty penny. That was in a case where the defendent was acting pretty clearly in self defense -- the questionable aspects of it involved the "history" he had with the victim which looked like he wanted to kill the guy.

If you shoot someone, that is just the beginning. Home invasions are rare and home invasions where the criminal intent is to murder the occupants are even rarer. Really, the chances of that are less than being struck by lightning. Having a loaded weapon in your home puts your ownership of that home at risk if anything goes ca-ca with the weapon. And people are protecting against what? The 1 in 10,000 chance that some evil person will storm into your home in order to kill you and your family? I gave that a lot of thought when I bought my first house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
Good Lord.
The attorney advised me that if I'm going to shoot someone who doesn't belong in my house, make sure this person doesn't live to tell a jury his side of the story. Everything becomes more difficult if the intruder lives.
If you kill someone for that reason you have committed a crime.

You only point a gun at someone FOR purpose of killing them IN defense of your life. Any lawyer who would say something different than this, isn't worth your time.

Last edited by redguard57; 01-17-2015 at 07:02 PM..
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